Jolie Shapiro00:01.533
Hey everyone, welcome to Revenue Mind, a podcast where revenue leaders talk about all things mental health. I'm Julie, host, and with us is Jason. Welcome, Jason.
Jason Widup00:10.968
Thanks, Jolie. Thanks for having me. Excited. This is one of my favorite topics, so looking forward to having our little discussion here.
Jolie Shapiro00:17.275
Yeah, for sure. So before we get started, what makes you, you?
Jason Widup00:23.01
Huh, interesting. I would say... All of my experiences. And I've had a lot of experiences. I'd say, know, everything from early childhood and how I was raised into like, I spent some time in the Marine Corps, you know, college. Everything has really shaped me and made me who I am today. Hey, I see a dog in the background. Nice. He's monitoring us. Or she. And yeah, and I would say lots of learning, lots of exploring myself, learning about myself. I'm still learning today. So keep it an open mind and growing, would say, like always being open to to growing and and knowing that I don't know at all.
Jolie Shapiro01:26.045
That's great. I something I don't think I coined it. I definitely didn't coin it because nothing's original anymore. But my thing is always be curious. I think it instead of always be closing. It's something that I just switched it out. Oh, sorry, I think my dog needs to go to the bathroom, but she can wait. Yeah. I might be staying in the carpet. Yeah, no, that that's
Jason Widup01:35.852
Yeah. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully. Yeah, hopefully.
Jolie Shapiro01:55.837
It's a growth mindset I think gets us where we need to be. It got me where I needed to be, so it's really good to hear. And you do have a lot of experiences, both professionally and personally, so we're going to get into that.
Jason Widup01:55.926
Thank Yeah, absolutely. I'm an open book usually. So yeah, happy to share all kinds of stories I've got.
Jolie Shapiro02:16.942
Awesome. All right, so on to the questions. You ready? Sweet. All right, first question. So speaking of being an open book, you mentioned you didn't realize you had anxiety until you were 40. What finally made you see it and how did that change how you handled stress at work?
Jason Widup02:37.09
Yeah, think I would always think about anxiety as like, I probably just had the wrong definition of it for most of my life, where I would think of anxiety as like my heart's racing, know, like just like a feeling of like wanting to get out of something. And I didn't have that, you know, I didn't have heart racing. I didn't have that kind of thing. But what I did have is a lot of doubt and worry. And I didn't realize that that those are also signs of anxiety. And I would constantly be trying to think ahead five steps to like avoid failure or avoid something bad or catastrophic happening. And just didn't realize that I was living my life like that, which really is a cornerstone of anxiety. And so, so. What was the second part of the question? How is it shaped? What I... Sorry, I can't remember the second part.
Jolie Shapiro03:38.996
no, this is why I'm probably like 5000 retakes. What finally made you see it, which I think you answered and how did that change how you handle stress at work?
Jason Widup03:50.638
Oh yeah, how I stress at work. You know, in terms of like how it changed how I handle stress at work, just I think A, number one, just realizing that a lot of this worry and trying to make sure nothing went wrong and thinking five steps ahead, just knowing that that is anxiety. And that's not a normal, well, I don't want to call it normal, but. It's not a healthy way of operating. And along with a lot of that comes self-doubt, what a lot of people call imposter syndrome. And I would always be looking for people to tell me I was doing a good job. That was my sign that I'm doing okay and not within myself, you know? And so the way I started to change things at work was to, well, you know, Jason, you're 40, you've gotten to this place, it didn't just happen by accident. And so you must be doing some things, right, at least. So give yourself some credit. Also just a lot of work, you know, in counseling and trying to just like go back in my history. Cause you know, lot of the things that we deal with, most of the things we deal with from a mental health perspective today can be traced way back. to our childhoods, you're really, mean, and I never really believed that, but when you really think about it, you're forming all of your views on the world and how you handle things. And a lot of that is formed through your parental relationships, your other early relationships. So going back and trying to like, cause I would always be, and I still am today a little bit, I'm still working on this a little bit today. It's like, I always want to be looking forward. It's like, things that have happened in the past have happened in the past. Let's forget about those and let's just look forward and move forward. that often you can't do it. That's not the way it works. Sometimes you have to go back in time and you have to address some of those things from the past so that you can move forward. so doing some of that allowed me to start to at least understand some of the reasons for the anxiety, tracing it back and then dealing with those things. So yeah, that's basically how I started changing the way I operated at work to feel less anxiety and to really operate, not from a place of fear, but more from a place of opportunity.
Jolie Shapiro06:31.548
That's amazing. I was smiling slash. I wasn't laughing at you. I was was was just like wow. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I was just like wow that hit home. I always used to think I was getting fired. That was my that was my passive like over and over and over again like oh this was like probably really to mid.
Jason Widup06:36.364
no, I figured you were like seeing some of yourself in what I was saying. Yeah. yeah, I've been through that. I've been through that. yeah.
Jolie Shapiro07:00.142
even late 20s, like I thought every time my boss was in a room with someone or they were in a boardroom or whatever, it was always about me. And I love how we all think it's about us. We all think it's like, they're talking about me. No, they're not.
Jason Widup07:06.338
Yep. Yep. Yeah, I remember specifically, I was on vacation once and I can remember, I can picture exactly where I was for zero reason for me to think this, but I had gotten a message or something from my boss at the time, just a benign, know, hey Jason, can we chat? I know you're on vacation, but blah, blah. I could not have a good day. I could not have a good time that day.
Jason Widup07:40.002
just all in my head, I was like, something's going wrong. So you catastrophize things, you know? And that's also hard on yourself because then you're missing out on what it could be. And you're just like sunk in the negative. You're just seeing like the worst case scenario, which is not a fun way to live, you know? And it's not helpful for you. so, yeah, I felt a lot about that too, yeah.
Jolie Shapiro08:06.798
Yeah, not to well screw it all Chris. It is fucking exhausting. It is exhausting and so many people. I feel like we don't well, point of this podcast. Like we don't talk about it, but we're all we're now we not everyone but a lot of us are in our heads. Not enjoying the moment because we're so anxious and it's it's I feel like I missed out. I don't know. Maybe I'm not sure if you
Jason Widup08:11.243
It is. Yeah. All Yep.
Jolie Shapiro08:33.488
I've experienced this but I feel like I missed out on like 10 years with anxiety.
Jason Widup08:37.27
yeah, no, for sure. Yeah. And it's one of those things where you don't want to beat yourself up about it, right? Cause it's like, you know, everybody takes their own path, but for sure. Yeah. There's years decades, decades almost, you know, that I lived in that way. And I totally missed out on living in the moment. I missed out on feeling positive things, you know, around me opportunities. so yeah, but I'm just happy that I have figured it out so that. I don't have to carry that with me. And now I can see like what it's like on the other side and enjoy things more and live more in them.
Jolie Shapiro09:14.638
Exactly. remember, I think, I don't know if everyone has this moment, but I remember when it lifted, like when it was finally gone. Like, you know, the obsessive thinking, the anxiety, whatever comes with it, and it is the most freeing thing. It's just like, holy shit.
Jason Widup09:24.728
Mm. Yeah, mine wasn't a moment. Yeah, mine took time. It was kind of gradually changed, but it fairly rapidly. It was like over the course of a year and a half, a year, a year and a half, something like that. So I didn't have a light switch moment, but I could tell things were changing and people around me could tell things were changing as well. For example, like even now, if I talk to somebody that I haven't talked to in years, Jason, you seem so much calmer. You seem just like you're... Confident, know as change and they can actually see that and they can tell it if you know again If I haven't talked to them in a couple of years And that's a nice feeling. Yeah, it's kind of like I don't feel that well Yeah, I guess I do feel that different but it kind of happened over the course of a couple year period
Jolie Shapiro10:16.858
That's awesome. And you don't, it's funny because we don't see it like you're looking for the external validation and you got it when you step back. And we're an anxious when we it's it's funny, I was has another thing I was doing the one move on because I could talk about this for three hours. No, I was constantly like how I did it is, I wouldn't ask how I was doing. But if I felt like someone was if I felt some sort I pick up on a lot of energy. So I would be like I would, I would Slack a completely different message like off topic but just to make sure they responded. Yeah so we're gonna stop there unless you want to say something you're welcome to but I yeah before they're before no one else wants to come on this she's crazy man this is why I have this is why I have editors so going to the revenue side
Jason Widup10:54.278
wow. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yep. No, not at all.
Jolie Shapiro11:16.356
So marketing can be intense. Did you ever lean on unhealthy coping habits and how did you pivot to healthier alternatives?
Jason Widup11:24.12
yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Weed was my number one choice. Never really a big alcohol guy. I just really, I don't know, didn't like the way it made me feel the next day. I'd have great time the night, the night of, but the next day I'm like, this is not worth it. And so, yeah, I got a really good, really solid, really solid weed habit. But really from early days, like it's, it's from late teenage years. And I took literally just maybe a couple years off here and there and that's it. and that was, that was how I was dealing with anxiety and, I thought I was, and it worked for a while, you it worked for years until it stopped working. and my theory is that, you know, weed triggers anxiety. You can like smoke weed and be paranoid. And that's not a great feeling, right? I remember like some early, early days. just a serious paranoia, right? Just like everyone's coming out to get me. And so the theory or the story I make up for myself, and this may or may not be true, but the longer I used it, and it was an everyday thing, the more I would put my body into that anxiety state and the body just in my mind and body has got used to that state. And so that then just became my perpetual state of anxiety. So I think it definitely contributed. think it early on it kind of helped. And then I think it absolutely contributed. And the way I steered around that one and that this is just like I'm a year and a half in at this point, but I started by just getting healthier generally. And so I started working out a lot. started climbing mountains, you know, doing bigger and bigger hikes and set goals for myself where, all right, I had a goal to climb Mount Rainier and the training for that took a lot of time. It was like an hour and a half to two hours of training per day, six days a week. You know, as you're older, you know, I'm 40 something, it takes a little bit more than if I were in my twenties, I could probably get away with like, you know, barely doing any training, but, and that would just take time. And so I didn't have time and I would never train stoned, you know, like that. to me that just wouldn't make any sense. And so it kind of kept me away from it. And then also the endorphins you get from working out and all the other benefits that go along with it just kind of, for me, was nice. It made it like an easy transition. But I thought I could keep dabbling in it and I'll be okay. But then I just got to the point where it was like, well, it's like I've gotten rid of all the other crutches of my life. I'm so much healthier in all these aspects of my life. And this was just holding me back in my mind, in my own mind. And I was like, and if I still need it every day or maybe not every single day, but pretty close to it, even if it's just at night or, you know, once before bed, that's still something that's a crutch for me and advice. And I wanted to just try and get rid of all of it. So then I was like, all right, let's do it. But it was actually really, really easy for me in terms of like the mental part to completely stop because I had kind of made that transition over like the last year. Physically, it was difficult, like physically like sleeping. And honestly, actually when I stopped, my fitness level went way down. It was interesting initially, cause then I did a lot of reading about this. It was actually keeping my heart rate normalized by having the marijuana in my body. And so without it, then my heart was like, what am I doing? And I would go on like a normal, just like a basic hike and my heart rates are like 160, 170 the entire time. And I'm like, This is when it would normally be like 120 or 130 doing the same hike. I'm like, this ain't good. But that took about two months. Sleeping took a couple of months to stabilize. The dreams were wild. But then, yeah, but since then it's been like, all right, this is the, and I developed some other new habits as well, like reading. I never was a reader ever. So I picked up reading. And so yeah, that's really how I transitioned out of it.
Jolie Shapiro15:41.885
This is off topic that I'm probably gonna cut out but are you based? because you mentioned hiking. I'm in Colorado. Yeah, they would talk about that. Yeah, so was like hiking a mountaineer. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Very cool. I'm gonna go back to podcast now. Yes, it's really interesting because I know people that did exactly what you did. lot of and
Jason Widup15:47.416
Seattle. yeah, yep, yep, yep. Yep. Yep.
Jolie Shapiro16:10.404
I mean, myself included. So I've been sober for three years. And when I was actively drinking, it was to treat my mental health challenges. So I was completely self-medicating. But the problem is, the problem is with that, is it makes it worse. We think it's going to make it better. But like you said, like it brings out depression, it brings out anxiety. The next day, you're total shit show. You're like, wait. But I feel really good in the moment. So let me keep doing this. And then it's just like you said, it becomes your natural circadian rhythm and it just becomes a new normal and it's not.
Jason Widup16:49.364
Yeah, yeah. most people with, that aren't drinking or smoking to celebrate, know, they're doing it more as a habit. It has, it's tied up in some kind of a mental health challenge. And they're self-medicating for the most part because something's not right. Something, you know, and that's, again, I'm not a doctor, but I've talked to enough of them. And, yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of people tied up in that. And they just don't know, they don't know because they're fine. You know what I mean? Like they can keep a job, keep a normal job, keep a great job even. Your body can get used to it in some ways. And then you don't realize it until you're out of it. Like, wow, this is better. My clear, man, my head got so much clearer. And I didn't realize it because I've been doing it so many years, I was like, well, I felt like my head was clear, but that was just my normal. So like now, now I'm like super clear headed and even in a better mood during the day. So yeah, yeah, a lot of positives.
Jolie Shapiro18:04.316
Definitely. I love your point about exercise too. It's so important for mental health. You know, my mom told me for years and I didn't, you know, like that rebellious teenager, twenties, I don't want to exercise. I'll just be skinny fat. I'll just eat, you know, I'll just eat one meal a day and you know, like classic, classic girl shit. And then my, that was like pre-diabetic. Anyways, might cut that out too. But,
Jason Widup18:07.042
So important. It is so important, yeah. Right. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro18:33.756
Yeah, I mean, she said they're like, it's just so, so, so important. And then there's so many, there's so many studies on it. the like, mental illness, no mental illness, just move, just go outside. Like, nature is amazing. Like something that I got taught was, and you probably know about this, the, the walking meditation, where you look at different objects, and it calms your mind, stuff like that is just, you can just walk. Oh, that's my dog. She's probably like a wood eater.
Jason Widup19:07.416
Yeah, for me, it's the combo of being outside in nature. And I really like to get out there where like my cell phone doesn't work, although now I've got satellite, you so now it's like, you know, the phones even work when I'm in the middle of nowhere, which is kind of nice. But yeah, and it's that plus the exercise for me that really helps.
Jolie Shapiro19:19.164
Here we go, start a link. That's awesome. that actually brings us to our next question. These are actually cohesive for once. Usually I'm like ADHD. Alright, nice question. So you're big on sleep, exercise and nutrition like we just talked about. What do you think these basics are so critical for leaders and how do you make them non-negotiable in a busy schedule?
Jason Widup19:37.486
I'm Yeah, I'll start with sleep first. Sleep just fascinates me. Because if you really take a step back and you look at it, you spend a third of your life in just a random coma where you're just completely out of it. If you really think about it, it's weird. sleep, I read this book, Why We Sleep, and it was fascinating to me. Just so eye-opening. I had no idea. just how important sleep is, what happens when you're sleep deprived, how you can get used to a six hour night's sleep, but you're not used to it. It's just like your body is kind of adapted, but you're definitely not at your best. So anybody that says, no man, I can work on five, six hours, no you can't. You could be actually better on seven and a half, eight hours of sleep a night. The restoration that happens, And not just that, but the dreaming. The dreaming is important, you know? The REM sleep, the deep sleep, the good mix of all of it, it's just so critical. So that's one thing where I just don't negotiate on that. mean, I like go to bed about nine, wake up about five, and I wake up naturally. So it's not like I don't need an alarm clock ever. And so, and when you're at that point, you know you're getting enough sleep for the most part. So that's one area. Then nutrition. Nutrition, haven't, mean, I've dug in a little bit, but it's probably out of the three, the one that I know about the least. I just know how important it is to eat whole foods. So I just really try and focus on whole foods. Cause the processed foods that we eat and actually I read another book called Breathe. And it actually talks about how when we entered like the industrialized revolution. and foods became softer because we processed these foods, our jawlines, our skulls shape and structure changed. And so that's why a lot of people have breathing problems now. It goes back to that change from like having to chew and gnaw on things, you know, to these soft processed foods. So it's not just the content, it's the consistency of the foods. And so, so for foods I try and I'm not great at this because I actually do. love my food. So like, I probably like 50%, maybe. But then on the exercise, yeah, that's another one where for me, I can so tell a difference. Like if I've gone a couple days and I haven't been able to exercise and I get in the gym, it's like I'm on a drug, you know, when I'm done. It's like, I remember I was just saying, we were at our SKO a couple weeks ago and I was so busy. You know, and I finally found a time to do a run and I got done with the run night rejoin people and they're like, what, are you on? I'm like, my God, you can tell that difference. You know, I'm like, nothing I'm on a runner's high, you know, I'm like literally, but I felt I could, I could feel the difference. And so I just really prioritize those things. And so I literally have time in my calendar blocked out for working out four days during the work week and then one day on the weekend. And I don't compromise it. My wife and I just have a deal. She's like, she understands that how important that is for me and my mental health and health. Even on the weekends, I do a big hike and she doesn't come with me. So I'm gone for half or three quarters of a day every weekend as well. And so, and I work so much during the week. And so it's just like, she understands though that she's going to get the best Jason, you know, with that. And I know that too. It has so much to do too. Like it regulates, it can regulate so many things. It can regulate anxiety. It can regulate mental health issues. And so again, exercise, all those things together, but exercise really is a big one.
Jolie Shapiro23:48.081
Yeah, every I feel like we could talk for probably six hours. Okay, okay. With all her mental health issues and how he is also going to cut out and how we and how we handle it. It's it's really I feel like we're the same way.
Jason Widup23:51.969
Hehehehe Yeah, and you can go too far, right? So like you can get to the point, can swap one negative addiction with a positive addiction, right? So like people can, they gotta watch that, you So you don't wanna go to like all of a sudden you're going from like couch to an Iron Man, you know? So there's a balance in there for sure. But yeah, I think if you keep a rhythm, a nice like... cut out enough time, but you have enough time for other things, I think it's good. Sometimes I feel like all I do is work and work out. But so then I'll get on a beat and I try not to get hard on myself if I miss a day or two. It's like, just try and be like, hey, you're doing other things, you're participating in life, it's okay. But one of these books I read, oh, it was the Atomic Habits book, was talking about like, if you're in a routine, if you miss one day, you're fine. Two days in a row though, you're off to another, you're creating a new habit, so that is negative habit. And so you wanna like, even if it's working out, even if you normally work out for an hour and a half, get in there for 15 minutes on that day too. Don't miss it. Now, if you're sick and whatever, that obviously, all that changes things. But if you're healthy and you're just like, I don't wanna do it, get your butt in there. Don't miss the second day. And so because the second day does start a different habit.
Jolie Shapiro25:26.15
Wow, that's awesome. I wrote Atomic Habits too. There was a time last summer when I was doing spin seven days a week and walking. I a little manic, which I'm also turning out. Yeah, but I was doing spin almost every day and walking my dog twice a day for pretty long walks.
Jason Widup25:39.014
wow, okay. That's a lot.
Jolie Shapiro25:54.007
and your mood just skyrockets. love that line where someone's like, who are you? Like, who is this Jason? Can I be on your show please? No, that's great. So yeah, it's funny. Well, off the record, have some questions on why we sleep in atomic habits, but you already answered those I think.
Jason Widup26:00.044
Yeah, yeah. What did you take? Is there a bottle of Adderall somewhere that you didn't tell me about? yeah, yeah, no worries. Yeah, those are kind of, those are my primary takeaways from those books. You the other thing with Atomic Habits that I think is really good that stuck with me is you want to have a vision of who you want to be. And then every day you want to ask yourself this vision of who I want to be, what would they do today? What would they be doing right now? So if I'm like, hey, I want to climb Mount Rainier. And if I think about, well, Would a mountain climber be taking a bong rip right now? You know what I mean? Like maybe, yeah, because mountain climbing is like, so maybe, but like probably not every day, you know? Would they be eating this shit? Yeah, probably not. And that's just a nice frame of reference to have too is like, give yourself that vision of who you want to be. And if you didn't, it's like, you're just, it's a person that you know, or something you know, or just like you've described it to yourself, then ask yourself every day when you're thinking about doing things or when you're setting up your habits, like would this person be doing that? and let that guide you.
Jolie Shapiro27:21.98
That's great. Another thing that I something along those lines. I had a friend that used to at the end of every day. She said that I have a good day. And it's not like mentally did I have a good day is like did I I'm sure you know, I'm talking about like, did I accomplish what I set out to do? And then she evaluated every day and every day was at 1 % you know, that 1 % incremental increase everyone talks about. But it's it's did I achieve what I wanted and then
Jason Widup27:32.492
Hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro27:51.825
to your point, what you said is about the self compassion. I I was talking to Natalie from Nevada and we were talking about how we're all so hard on ourselves. And like for your example with missing that second day, I've been out of the gym for a month or two and I'm so pissed at myself. I was, I was walking my dog today and multitasking, but on a call, I think they thought I was dying. I was breathing so hard because I'm in Colorado, I'm in 5,000 feet. I had an exercise in two months. I have very valid reasons, but maybe... No, you're still like, why can't I get my ass to the gym? Yeah, for sure.
Jason Widup28:34.252
Yep. But it's still hard. can still, even with the valid reasons, sometimes you still get up in your head. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot, you know, there's, and that's even still hard for me today. And that's something I still work on with my counselor, is that like not being hard on yourself. I've gotten better for sure, but I still, you know, I still do get hard on myself on a lot of things. And so, yeah, that's probably one of my bigger growth areas I'm still working on. Again, gotten a lot better, I still get down on myself and pretty hard on myself if I don't reach a certain thing or don't make something happen or miss too many days. Or even if I get sick and I'm trying to get back at it too quickly, which is just makes you more sick sometimes. So yeah, that self-compassion is hard, especially for people who are really driven. Because a lot of times, unfortunately, And actually, especially like people my age, they were raised in that kind of like not good enough place. And that is what ended up motivating us. And so sometimes that, and it's hard to see like, wow, you can be motivated positively too with compassion. How does that motivate? You don't even, it doesn't even make sense, you know? But it's true. And so, but making, trying to learn that and trying to switch is tough on that.
Jolie Shapiro29:59.503
Yeah, for sure. There was a time and I don't, I don't know if it's as bad now because I don't have kids but where was the complete opposite and people were too nice to the next generation and my generation we became entitled brats. Exactly.
Jason Widup30:11.308
Yeah, that can happen too. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Or the parents did everything for them and didn't let them experience natural consequences of things. And then they grow up and they don't know how to handle anything. That's a hundred percent a problem right now. I see it a lot, unfortunately. And I think people, parents are starting to get a little bit like starting to go back that way. But when I was raising my kids, I was that way a lot. Part of that was the anxiety, right? It's like I didn't want bad things to happen to them. And so I would do it or I would handle it. with My kids were four years, four and a half years apart. So with the second one, I was able to kind of realize that a little bit more. And he is able to like really manage himself, you know what I mean? And take care of things. And a lot of them don't want to even make a phone call. You know what I mean? They're like anxious about making a phone call, you know? And he'll pick up the phone and calls, you know? And so, yeah, you can definitely make them soft on accident by just doing the right, you you think you're doing the right thing, you know, 100 % and most parents do. And it's like, well, I'm protecting them from all the bad things in the world. Well, experiencing a lot of those bad things is how we learn how to deal with adversity, because we're all going to have adversity as adults. So we need to learn how to deal with it at an earlier age. So yeah, if I had to raise kids again, would definitely, everyone, every parents would say this, you know, there's a lot of things you would change in how you did it. And that's definitely one
Jolie Shapiro31:37.085
Yeah, for sure. The one, the only thing my parents used to want a lot more from us, my brother and I, but they were on this camp of, you know, they're tough. They're were loving but firm. Not being tough. I gotta edit that. But no, I think all they want now, now that we're in our my brother and I are in our 30s is they want us to be functional adults.
Jason Widup31:51.532
Yep. Yep.
Jolie Shapiro32:06.424
and happy. That's all they want. I think that's all any parent wants if I were to guess from your limited experience.
Jason Widup32:07.916
Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. Yeah, yeah, 100%. You want them to be healthy, happy, ideally not destitute. And yeah, and not hurting anybody, you know, in the process. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro32:26.716
Yeah, maybe don't be Ted Bundy. And yeah, that's successful. I'm just going to pause a little bit because I want to make sure. OK, I got the books. Let's see. they're first. Trying to a good transition because so many questions are like this. I might edit it in, but let's see. So we were talking about parenting.
Jason Widup32:28.974
Yep. yeah, no worries.
Jolie Shapiro32:55.876
Sacrificing results. Give me like two seconds. I'm not even gonna ask that question. Alright, cool. Yeah, so I think kids is definitely one thing and part of us, at least for me, that self-doubt is, I think, stays with us for a long time and we have to, and that's something it sounds like you've worked on. So when you feel, when you still feel that self-doubt grouping in, What's your go-to strategy for staying confident under pressure?
Jason Widup33:37.262
That's a good question, because it still happens to me. Not as much, but it happened to me recently. I was at an event in London and we were sponsoring this event and I had a little chance to get up and say something and I said something. And then later on that evening, the kind of guest speaker got up and kind of trashed what I said. And he's kind of, this guy was kind of known for being a, he's like in the tabloids and so pretty well known person in the UK. And oh my God, did I feel so small? I was in the back of the room and I hear this and I like pull up my phone pretending I'm on my phone. So I'm like, I can't deal with this right now. And then I literally get up casually, you know, like everything's fine. Walk downstairs. Cause this was in the office, you know, our office is there and I just had to process it. I'm like, what is going on? I'm like, Whoa, did, was I wrong? Was I, and. I actually went into a little bit of a spin. Finally got to the point where like, listen, Jason, get yourself, pull yourself together, get back up there and just deal with it. You know, and I went back up and sure enough, people were like, man, he didn't really like what you said. And I'm like, nope, can't please everybody, but at least he's talking about me, you know, kind of thing. And I remember getting back to my hotel room and I called my wife and I told her all about it. She's like, I want to kill this guy. You know, first of all, she gets all, you know, but then I use my wife helps me a lot. She's my biggest cheerleader, I would say. so using her to kind of just like, all right, kind of, but it was weird for me because I hadn't felt that way in a long time. Putting myself back out there, head of marketing at a larger company instead of like fractional CMO at all these smaller companies, which is really pretty easy to do. And there's no, you're not putting your neck out there, right? Cause like you're just fractional CMO. I was like, Jason, this is what you signed back up for. know, it's like, you gotta have some thicker skin. So yeah, that was tough. But I think for me, I try and put it in perspective, first of all, and realize like, and honestly, time helps. So I felt bad for a couple of days. You know, it kind of really got me for a couple of days. And then over the night, the feeling bad about myself was like a day or two. But then like the lingering effect was like probably another couple of days. So time will help, you know, with those kinds of things too. But just reminding myself that that doesn't define me. You know, this is not something, maybe this doesn't work in the UK, it works in the US, whatever, you know, cultural differences, whatever. But it doesn't really matter, you know. Ultimately, you have to be happy with yourself as a human being first and not define yourself as your work. And so as long as I don't do that, and you have other hobbies and you have other passions, you're like, well, you know what? Somebody didn't like it. 150 people heard it. It's not a huge deal. And then also, hey, by the way, I've stuck in the mind of a billionaire in the UK. So least there's that. so, yeah, I still think he's a dick. you know, like. And we paid him to be there, so like, come on, man, you know, like, but anyway, I digress. Like, you can tell I'm still harboring a little bit of, you know, little anger.
Jolie Shapiro37:07.296
you can totally harbor. I don't hold grudges or anything. No, I tend to, that's a really good point. I tend to, I used to shut down. I definitely used to shut down, especially in the beginning of my career. I'm laughing because I have a recent story too. But I was working at a company and I kept getting called out by this one person.
Jason Widup37:12.877
Hahaha. Yeah. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro37:37.589
on I don't it wasn't really mistakes but just very very aggressive so an example where I flipped the script they said I was expecting a deck and I asked the PM who was also on the call I said XYZ wasn't the wasn't the deliverable a word doc like I don't I don't give a shit anymore I'm like you know what not everyone's gonna like me it's you know same to you
Jason Widup37:43.214
Mm. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro38:07.32
And what is it? What's that expression? The publicity quote? Any publicity is good publicity? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I'll be known as the, you know, whatever, but I get shit done. That's what I'm known for. And you're known for, you know, you're the, you're that way. Sorry, what's your title again? VP marketing, right? At pixels? Yeah, I saw VP. It was like, wait, shit, I want to fuck up your title. Yeah, I was like, I know you're VP. Okay.
Jason Widup38:13.524
yeah, yeah, yeah, there's no bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Head of marketing, yeah, head SVP marketing, whatever, titles, titles, yeah. I run marketing.
Jolie Shapiro38:37.276
Yeah, you're the VP of marketing. And you spoke in front of 150 people. That's what we should remember is that how, for my example, very small. But I stood up for myself when I never do. I used to shut down. You got in the head of a billionaire. Let's fucking go. That's awesome.
Jason Widup38:56.568
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro39:03.662
It's small wins and the big wins I think that make us human and who we are. So I'm just going to pause because there are a of questions that you've answered. yeah, no, I could definitely, I could go on for a while. I'm happy I didn't ghost you this time. I'm loving this. hope you are too. OK, let's see.
Jason Widup39:12.171
yeah, no problem. If you think of any more, know, we'll see. Hahaha
Jolie Shapiro39:27.184
this is good. So speaking of Pixis, so you've worked with a lot of high pressure teams, Marketo, Litics, Metadata. I actually used to listen to that podcast all the time when I was studying B2B marketing. And now your current role. So what have you learned about building a culture that respects well-being as much as hitting targets?
Jason Widup39:49.196
Hmm. Yeah, that's a good question. So one of the things that I do when I'm interviewing people is I ask them and I throw them a curve ball at the end. It's not a huge curve ball. It shouldn't be. But I say, what do you do for fun? And I make sure people have an actual answer, that they have something that they do outside of work and they don't struggle to find an answer. I do several, most people have an answer I find. Some people struggle. And to me, that's kind of a warning sign. so, and then also as I'm onboarding or interviewing, you know, people and talking about what it's going to be like working here. I talk about the importance of. So I had this conversation recently with somebody I hired. It was like, they had like a side gig going that was maybe a little bit more involved than I was comfortable with. I mean, at least they were, you know, told me about it. And just said, the thing for me is I want all of your mind and I want you to be able to do other things, but I want you to have time for your family. You've got a new child. I want you to have time for your family. I want you have time to do things outside of work. That's what's most important to me. I do want you to have a side thing, but I think this one might take a little too much of your time. that's one of the things. And then the other thing is just leading by example. That's the most important thing. If you say it and don't do it, people are not going to... Listen to what you say. They're going to do what you do. And so for me, it's I tell people right out of the gate, I tell people things like I don't have Slack notification turned on my phone ever. It's not just I turn them off at night. Just my phone is not the place for me to get a Slack notification. You know, so if I'm away from my computer, Slack is not, you know, you have my phone number because everybody I work with has my phone text me if it's important. Things like I like today, somebody actually asked me like, hey, do you have any more time today? Said no, because after this podcast I'm doing, I am working out and then I have a counseling appointment. And so, and I'm not willing to like, you know, the old me would have been like, sacrifice the workout to please you and to, know, but really being protective of that time and showing and talking about that with people, blocking out times in my day for a break or lunch and being protective about that stuff. Not overworking, you know, it's like, I'm very clear. I'm about a nine hour a day guy. I'm not really, sometimes I'll say some, usually I try not to work on the weekends at all, but sometimes on a Sunday night, I'll just kind of pull things up and kind of look where I'm at. I try to avoid that. so yeah, so it's living it as well as talking about it. And that's what people really see. and that's the only thing that can really make it okay in a culture that you're building.
Jolie Shapiro42:44.846
sure that brought up so many thoughts. I'm trying to figure out which one to talk about.
Jason Widup42:48.75
Well, so many people like, they'll say it, but then they don't do it. And then they think like, well, because I'm the VP or I'm, you know, I'm under different rules. Well, that's not, that's not true, you know? And I think it's just so important to lead by example. That's the only way to lead really. And so, yeah, so that's, that's, that's my approach.
Jolie Shapiro42:53.754
Yeah, that's... Yeah, that's that's a really good point. What is that expression? Do what I do not what I say, or do what I think it's a parenting thing, right? There we go. couldn't remember the Yeah, and to your point, I think it comes from the top down. Like I've worked at companies
Jason Widup43:21.28
Yeah, do what I say, not what I do. Yeah. Like when you want to do bad things, like don't do this because I'm telling you not to do it, but don't do this. Well, they're going to do it because you're doing it. And like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's ridiculous saying, but it's a definite saying. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro43:41.711
where the top, were all workaholics and they expected the same of us. And it created a very toxic culture. And I tend to get very zoned into things. So I was working on a side thing and I was spending all weekend on it, like building and building and building and building. And then... my fiance went out of town, I canceled all my friends plans and just worked on it for seven days. So little intense. Yeah. Yeah. I put my it was it was bad and I got called out and if we don't if we don't have a life outside of work, it's a little sad. Not a little sad a lot sad.
Jason Widup44:14.19
Oh wow, yeah, that's some dedication. Yeah. People used to ask me what my hobby was and I'd say work. I was like, I like to work. And you know, when you have little kids, it is hard. It's hard to, cause you're like work and then you're doing your kids stuff. My kids are older out of the house now. So it's a lot easier for me. And you know, once they become teenagers, you're still driving them. And then once they drive, you're like, okay, you're starting to see the, you know, starting to see the sky again. so I do. have empathy for people that are working in a demanding job and have little kids. That's hard to do. And it's hard to have hobbies for yourself. So I get that in that kind of like 15 year period, which is a long time, but you get a pass on that one almost, you know, but hopefully you do have some things that even if you're maybe with a family together, you're doing hobbies and that kind of thing. Hopefully that's the case. That wasn't really for me. But when you do have that space, it's like, you definitely want to have things outside of work and you want to pace yourself with work too. You can easily burn out. And if you burn out, you're no good to anybody. so, and you're the only one that can really protect that time and know if that's happening or not. And the kind of leader that I like to be, as I've worked in places where I've had the CEOs or whatever, but I'll be that middle ground shield, right? Where I'm like, well, that's what they're doing, but I'm not gonna do it. And sometimes that causes a lot of friction. But the people that are working for you at least see like, okay, that's what I'm going to look at as the example, not up a level so that they can do their best work. Because like if they're going to get burned out, if they're grinding too much, they're not going to do their best work. And that's not what I
Jolie Shapiro46:09.306
Yeah, yeah, we actually there's a company I worked at where the CEO demanded that we all work 60 hours to say to
Jason Widup46:16.97
yeah, hell no. Immediate out, immediate out. Immediate red flag. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro46:21.532
Yeah, first of all, don't think that's legal. don't know. I don't know if that's legal. But a person resigned because of it because the CEO told her to tell the team or because she was an account director. She's like, I'm done. Bye. She quit on the spot.
Jason Widup46:26.23
Yeah, no, yeah. yeah. yeah, nope, Yep, that's exactly what I would do too. Yeah, no thanks. I don't need to do that. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro46:45.992
Peace. Well, I love that you're so open about mental health. I'm really, I'll probably get the tattoo, but really enjoy. I haven't really spoken about mental illness on this, on a pot on one of the episodes yet. So this is awesome. Well, being so like the, not that's the honest people have admitted to have anxiety, ADHD, but like the nuances of it. So it's really interesting.
Jason Widup47:00.802
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's important because I don't think, A, I don't think it's talked about enough. I think there's still some stigma around it. There's a lot less than there used to be for sure, which is nice. And a lot more people, way more people are talking about it. There's way more people that are in counseling than, probably the same amount of people, but now you know more about it because people are more willing to talk about it. And I think it's becoming more of the norm. Like we all need help, you know, and we all have demons and things that we're dealing with. And that's part of our life. And work and life are pretty merged together in a lot of times, you know, especially in this age of connectivity, you know, and all that stuff. So yeah, no, I think it's an important thing to talk about. I talk about it openly at work with my people that I work with. And I watch out for it. You know, I watch out for it too, in people that I work with in my team. And I'll ask them, you know, hey, it doesn't seem like you're everything okay. And, and I think people. They want to be seen and heard. so, so yeah, it's a good thing that people are talking about it.
Jolie Shapiro48:12.636
That's so funny you answered my next question. You're just... Now you're on it! Oh yeah, I gave you questions in advance, that makes sense. You didn't look at them? Oh my god, you're totally acting like you're answering them like you looked at them. I'm like, damn.
Jason Widup48:15.246
You know, I'm just like, you know, I'm just trying to be ahead of the game here. I didn't even look at him. did you? No. That's funny. No, I didn't even know you sent him. Where? no. No, didn't even see him. So no, that's good.
Jolie Shapiro48:30.3
I was like, Hey, Jason, here are the questions. All right, you're you're like, telepathic. I was like, I say you were talking about, okay, that question. I'll think about something. Yeah. That all makes sense. You actually answered my next question. So we'll skip that.
Jason Widup48:39.479
Thank
Jolie Shapiro48:56.752
But the last question before we talked about, excuse me, let me redo that. Last question before we talk about your LinkedIn, which is probably where to find you, which is I found you at least. Looking back, what's one piece of mental health advice you wish you'd been given earlier in your career?
Jason Widup49:19.596
that Probably really around the confidence, imposter syndrome, that this is a real thing. I thought I was unique. I thought like, I'm the only one dealing with this. They're gonna find me out. know, that's the, they're gonna find out I'm not cut out for this. You know, I'm not fit for this. So just to know, I think just knowing earlier in my life what those things looked like and what they really meant. that would have been nice, to at least known about it earlier. And so, yeah, just kind of like, and probably a little bit of like, give yourself some compassion. You need to give yourself some compassion because no one else really is going to. And I guess kind of thirdly, but related, it's like, if you're dealing with something yourself, and you're being hard on yourself, you gotta look at like, well, what if a friend of yours was having that same issue? What would you tell them to do? And give yourself that same grace that you would tell your friend. Oftentimes we have a different expectation of ourselves than we do for people around us that we care about and love. And so why not have that same expectation, that softer consideration for ourselves too, because we deserve it just as much as our friends and our loved ones do. And so, yeah, probably that.
Jolie Shapiro50:50.94
That's awesome. It's almost like we think we don't deserve what we give. A lot of us. All right, so where can all those centers find you if they have any follow up questions?
Jason Widup50:56.844
Yeah, yeah, exactly. yeah, LinkedIn always, I'm active on LinkedIn. I put out all kinds of stuff, things about mental health sometimes, think of things about AI, marketing. So I try and hit on all the topics, yeah, I'm always active on LinkedIn. So hit me up there, Jason Whittup.
Jolie Shapiro51:23.928
Awesome. Yeah, I've no I send you like, this is I think this is a funny post. Let's see if he likes this. I wrote one today about you probably saw it, but I'm like, I think you Yeah, so I'm gonna cut that part out too. But yeah, thank you so much, Jason. This was great. Really, really good.
Jason Widup51:30.094
Yep. Yeah, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. I love talking about this stuff. so, yeah, good luck with your podcast, you know, and I've seen you've been doing several good episodes. so congratulations on this and wishing you but the best with it. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro51:56.368
Thank you so much.