Jolie Shapiro00:00.622
Alright everyone welcome to revenue mind a podcast where revenue leaders share. I'm doing it over again. God damn it. Hold on. Okay, this is this is why I have my screen over here so I can read. You're all good. Let me do it again. Okay. Hey everyone. Welcome to revenue mind a podcast for revenue leaders talk about all things mental health. I'm Julie your host and with us is Mason. Welcome Mason. Julie thank you for having me. Excited to dig into it today. Yeah, for sure. So before we dig in, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, for starters, I'm a husband and then a father and then I happen to also run a company called Scrappy ABM. I always like to do it in that order specifically because it's especially in the context of mental health. If your work becomes your identity, you end up not being super present for your family and especially I. Didn't start a business because I wanted to be completely consumed by work, even though that does happen at times. I want to be able to provide for my family and be present for them so. That's what we do there. That's who I am. Scrappy BMP provides step by step programs for the crawl stage of account based marketing. So that's what we functionally do, but the goal is to essentially help people build better processes that also take care of their people as they go to build an account based program. That's awesome. Thanks for the intro and I really resonate with that. Something my partner says is money is a tool. Like we all love to have a purpose driven, I know you and I talked about it, we all love to have a purpose driven job, but at the end of the day, it gives us the tools to provide for our families to travel to live our best lives. So that's awesome. Yeah. So now onto the question. So you've been on quite a few podcasts, many of which I've listened to, and you also host your own. What keeps you coming back to share your stories and insights? One, I really actually just enjoy it separately from the opportunity to create content, which is hopefully helpful for a lot of people. What I've found is the most enjoyable piece is, admittedly, we're all super busy. So this is an opportunity to have a one -to -one conversation with another human being that is in the same space and can relate and bounce off of each other. And I've just actually made really great friendships through podcasting. And I mean that seriously, like people that are in the B2B SaaS world that are some of my closest friends started as a podcast guest and we just like kept talking. So I yes, I love creating content. Yes, I love helping people build better ABM programs, but there's something that is somebody that's willing to host a podcast or be on a podcast. Generally are are great people. And I mean that sincerely of. It's hard to host a podcast and just stay consistent, so if it's something that you're consistent with, it means that you really deeply care about the topic and the subject matter, and hopefully something that we can actually develop a longer term friendship around. So that's why I keep coming back. And then also, it's a forcing function for me to really clarify my thoughts. I have done a lot of podcasts on similar topics, and I feel like every time I share something, I get better at communicating it. And since most of my job in my life now is actually communication of ideas, the more that I can communicate those ideas, the better they get refined, the more clearly they are communicated. And as a result, the better I can help other people. So those are the reasons I keep coming back. That's awesome. Yeah, it's like what's that rule if you can explain it to a 6th grader? You've got it down. Yep. Something like that. I'm trying to do that with a 9 month old and she number still not there yet. I feel like she'll, she'll get there. She'll get, she's real close. So speaking of mental health with your deep passion, mental health, I know we had a conversation before this. How do you integrate this advocacy into your marketing revenue leadership roles where there's an insane amount of pressure? Yeah. In the context of running an agency and I'm stealing this, I worked in an agency previously and they did this really, really well. And I got to be honest, like, as I look back on my professional life, it was probably the happiest that I was. Is very clear roles and responsibilities. So for my team, what I try to do is structure their world in which they have three core responsibilities and that's it. They can do three things super well, then they're good to go. And again, in the context of an agency, which is what we run, it's easier to do that because you do three things across 10 clients versus in a day job. You may need to do 10 things across three different departments. So again, I understand that in the context of an agency specialized roles that makes sense. But for revenue leadership, my goal is to create a world in which somebody can actually just do their job and do it really well because it's very clear and very specific. There's that side. And then the other component to it is I try to lay out our work week in such a way that it's roughly 32 to 35 hours of work that is pre -planned work, because especially in the context of an agency, generally speaking, something will probably happen. Just kind of how it goes. There is the inevitable client fire. Something happens that was outside of our control that we are still held accountable to and have to fix. So when that happens, not if, but when if we've consistently worked 32 to 35 hours a week, then maybe the the fix is a five hour fix. We're still under 40. Other times though, it might be a 5055 hour work week and my goal is the given take. We often think about give and take in the context of, yeah, you're going to work your 40 hours and then like occasionally there'll be like the 50 hour work week, but like people sign a contract that says they're going to work 160 hours a month. So if I bank that they should work ballpark 32 to 35 hours, and also if they work faster, am I going to penalize them and add more work? Great. They're an efficient worker. Like they should have less to do because my margins stay the same, admittedly, as a business owner and as a revenue leader. So anyway. There's that and then when the inevitable fire comes up. It doesn't feel as stressful because there's already been baked in time for the unplanned and if it ends up going over and it ends up being a 45 or 50 or 55 hour work week for one week, the rest of the month is 32 to 35, so it evens out in the long run and team members know that I try to plan and I structure organization in such a way that the fires don't take over their life, but that they are. to the best of our ability planned for. Makes a lot of sense and actually the agency myself and something that they do is weekly resourcing. So seeing the bandwidth as I'm sure you know already seeing the bandwidth. That everyone has and then based on that advocate we all advocate for time. which is the most precious commodity. Real quick, Mason and Kazooie recording will continue on a new track. Changing their devices. That's weird. Huh. All good. It'll... Maybe it was just Riverside. Well, my microphone... Did you change... that's why. You can't fix that. Okay. No, all good. All good. No, it's just going to record a new track and I'll do all the consolidating. Well, I mean, like, you're going to get worse audio quality. I edited the script and get like, there's a way to do like studio sound. I mean, I think we should be fine. What do you think? And we create a new studio where I can change it. I'm so sorry. That is such a no problem. Yeah, let's do that. Let's log on the session for all in the long back end. That should work. And then we'll pick up where we left off. Yeah, sounds perfect. OK, OK, cool. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. So you've shared a bit about your transition from pursuing pastoral work to make a significant impact in marketing. So can you elaborate how this renewed shape your leadership and mental health approach? Yeah, I mean, admittedly, I'm very open about my faith. And for me, I personally had a friend because I was trying to become a pastor and as much as I thought I could be in ministry. I realized like it was not. It was not my gifting. It was not my skill set. It's really funny. I can teach really, really well on ABM, but my wife lovingly told me like she came to my Sunday school class for one semester and it was horrible. And I just did such a bad job and I consistently could not teach scripture well, but I can teach you how to do an ABM program super well, which is really frustrating. But like it's just not, it's not my skill set. so when I ended up, I had a friend that just said, Hey, like Mason, you're really, cause I was working in sales. I was doing really well in sales, and self -sourcing a lot of pipeline and like ended up becoming a sales team leader. It's like, yes, you're really good at like making revenue. Like somebody has to fund the church. So for me, as I think through then revenue leadership, I've primarily worked in organizations in which the goal was, you know, our job is to market a thing. that helps other people make money so they can make more money. And if that's it, that's really actually super depressing. Like, like, because I also I married a nurse that like actually save people's lives. So like, if the whole goal of everything that we do is to make money so we can help other people make money, so they can have other people make money, like that really sucks. So the Going back to your point earlier that money is just a tool like I happen to be really good at marketing and communication and generally speaking account based marketing specifically and I've helped build a team of people that are good at that too. So we all make money and then what I try to do is have value alignment with those that I work with. So again from a values perspective we generally all want the same things which are to use me that we earn to go make a greater impact. In my context, that is ideally actually spreading the gospel. Some of our team members have the exact same thought process, but the goal is to take the revenue that we generate, to take the income that we earn, and to actually go do something with that. And because we don't have to stress over, like, where's the next meal gonna come from? If you have Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we are secure, we are stable, we have shelter. We can actually now think more of higher level thinking. And as a result, our goal is to then help other people outside of our day jobs. So like I try to create again an organization and a team structure and when people can do their jobs, they can do good work. They can find purpose in their work. But also like it's a job and they can do a really good job and then go do other things that align to a greater purpose that is not just helping other people make money, so they can help other people. I'm going to help other people make money. Yeah, I completely agree with that. Like for me, for marketing, I have a huge passion for it and I have a huge passion for helping solve problems. So at the agency, we help solve problems as essentially the crux of what we do for very large organizations. So it's, you find that purpose there. But then with this mental health podcast, I love it because I get to give everyone a platform to share their story. And I think it's something that hasn't really been addressed, at least in the revenue community that I've seen. So this has been really, it's been cool. It's been cool to do and really appreciate you sharing your thoughts as well. On to the next question. I'm gonna redo that. That sounded like I was willing wonka. I was I've been hiking for 10 days, so I'm a little I've been I've been doing a lot of retakes today because I'm a little little tired. Great one second. So speaking of purpose, you found a unique way to blend purpose, different work with your professional skills. How has this work influenced your perspective on success and fulfillment in the tech space? Yeah, it's really interesting because somebody is like, what's your goal? Scrap ABM. I'm like to exist. Like the whole goal is just to keep going. And I was talking with another client and they're like, yeah, our goal is in the five years to take down our greatest competitor. Like that's cool, but like one you're probably actually gonna do it and I hate to put it that bluntly, but like some of these companies that are that we're going up against are like just way better funded like way better funded so they just have more money and like they can outspend us like my goal is not to be the largest agency in the world. That's honestly stupid. For me, it's just. I take a lot of comfort. And like my goal is to just continue to exist and continue to do good work for our clients. And like my game is a bit different as a result because I play a 25 to 30 year game. Like my goal is to be around for a while. So it puts a lot less pressure on the here and now. Like I can have a month that's not nearly as profitable as our last month because I made intentional investments and like there's nobody else outside of me because we're again. privately held entirely bootstrapped organization. I hate to put it this bluntly, but like as long as I'm okay with it and our team's okay with it, we can kind of do whatever we want. So generally speaking, that's how I feel about it is like the goal is not to overtake and destroy and like kill our competition. The goal is to really good work for really good clients and help people out, make a decent living and continue to exist. That is it. I just think it's more people had that mindset that the goal isn't. To win like I love some of the examples when you think about businesses and infinite game. How do you win? Long. What just happened? no, do you do you think it? it's OK. Do you think it'd be better to like to like redo this? Because I know you have a hard stop and we can just start fresh. What are your thoughts? My heart stop is at 430. I still got 35. OK. And we don't have, let me see what other questions I have. 5, 6, 1, 2, 3. I have five more questions. Great. So I think I'll just have Riverside help me combine all the tracks and stuff. it's OK. No, it's not your, it's tech shit. Not your fault. OK, I'll see you in a little bit. It's really funny when you start to shift the perspective towards the idea of an infinite game. It's like, how do you win business? How do you like people saying, I'm going to win in marriage. Like you don't win in marriage. You continue to be married. And I think again, in the context of business and in revenue, like there are certain companies that I will say in the P and VC space that are specifically built in such a way to sell to a larger organization. You can win in that context, but most businesses today are built just to exist and to add benefit to somebody else. So again, for me as a revenue leader. That's the shift in perspective. As long as we continue growing in the long term and as long as we continue actually existing, that's the win. Yes, we have specific revenue goals. I would like us to be a. $1 .2 million business and revenue by the end of the year. That's our goal, but if we came in at one. Or 1 .1. Not the end of the world. We just wouldn't be able to do some things that we want to do for next year. And then that would happen a little bit later on, which is OK because the goal is to exist for the next 25 to 30 years. It's like that's that's how I think about it. Yeah that makes a lot of sense I was talking with them with Alex Boyd earlier and we aligned on is the journey not the destination. And if you don't stop and look around like they say that for a movie you're gonna miss something. And I don't even know that it's because I heard this over the weekend it's like it's not the destination or the journey it's like who you become along the way like I'm a friend of the business owner that was like. Owning a business and like really becoming a revenue leader overall is just the largest self improvement process of all time. Because I'm no longer like prime example of scrappy AVM scrappy. I mean, it was started because I was half decent at doing account based marketing programs. That was it. And I have a team of seven. I don't actually do that much. ABM anymore. I now manage a team of people that do account based marketing and I have to help them get better at their job. I don't know what the destination will actually end up being. I don't even know what the journey will end up being, but I like who I'm becoming. I like who I'm helping our team become along the way. So for me, that's actually better than it's the destination. Like it's who we become along the way. I love that. I might steal that. Actually, not might probably will steal that. I stole it. Well, whoever is going to be in the LinkedIn echo chamber, everyone's going to be saying the exact same thing. We'll love it. We'll say you coined it. So pivoting a little bit. So pivoting a little bit. Dealing with performance pressures and the potential impact of your actions on others livelihoods is... incredibly stressful. Can you talk about a time when this weight felt particularly having how you managed it? yeah, super easily. I was the director of growth at an agency and sold like a lot in a very short timeframe. And admittedly, I got frustrated because I was working a ridiculous amount. and didn't didn't receive the competition that I thought I should have been receiving, whether that was naivety or whatever. I don't I don't know. But at the end of the day, I thought I should be earning more. I thought I should be working less. And neither one of those things happened after I had my performance review. They're like, you're doing great. And like I got a very standard raise and I was like, no, no. So I left and I was then about three months after they did a layoff and I was I was the sole seller. for that organization. So when I left, I knew that layoff was in large part probably because I wasn't there selling, regardless of whether or not I was the sales like, like, I don't know what else to say. Like whether or not I was the sales secret sauce or actually they just had a really, really great product. And I happened to sit in a seat that sold that product when a seller leaves, especially if they're the sole seller. You're going to lose relationship traction. It's going to push deals out. People are going to see the transition and they're going to maybe not come inbound as much for a season. And that impacted the revenue of that organization in a not insignificant way clearly. So like I. I don't know that I handled it well in the sense that. Still awful for those people that ended up being laid off and I did, but I could help them land new jobs. It's kind of been my like. I think I've helped probably six people in new jobs in the past four years, just because I know it's hard. But like, I, yeah, I felt really frustrated. I honestly felt very bitter towards leadership. I had a lot of like, what if they had just like, cops, I was also probably really there again. And then I mean that sincerely of. I felt both sides of it. I was like, if I had stayed, like I could have helped these people not lose their job. But I was also like, if they'd give me the raise, like they probably wouldn't have had to let these people off and they probably would have made more money. And like, I have no idea. I legitimately have no idea. Because it was also maybe at the same time that like a market shift happened and maybe they changed the product and I wasn't aware of it or like there's a thousand things that it could have been. But I having my own perspective, both beat myself up over something that I had already left three months previously. and got cocky and arrogant in my own mind about if they had just done the thing, they would be better off and I have no idea. So. Yeah, I think like, especially in revenue leadership or if you're a seller and like things don't go your way, it's very easy to start telling yourselves narratives of like, they just listen. Things would have done gone differently, especially in the seat of a seller. Because so much of the companies, I mean, you are the gatekeeper to revenue that is. continued growth unless you have a great expansion motion, which most companies don't. so it's easy to start telling yourself those narratives. And I wish what I had done instead, because I wasted a lot of time thinking about something that I had zero impact on. It could have zero impact on. I wish I had just moved on more quickly and said like, man, that really sucks. And then help people land new jobs and just called it a day. but that probably lived rent free in my mind for about three or four months, not a short time either. So. I know they'll still pop up in the back of my mind. Like, I'll see something happen to that organization and it's been years and I'm like, and like, that's just my own potentially cockiness and arrogance, but also like desire to help other people all at the same time. It's weird. That's really interesting. There's something I always used to go by, but embrace the suck. Have you heard that expression? I had a friend that was in the Marines. yeah. That's probably what, yep. I think that's where it came from, right? Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I think the more when you're under that amount of pressure, it really puts things into perspective. So I know we talked a little bit about Purpose Sugar Marketing and the antithesis of what we're doing right now, but the mental health benefits of creative freedom are amazing, especially to be able to do it for refugees. So can you tell us a little bit about your project there? Yeah, I mean, I help run the marketing for a local nonprofit that we've been involved with for about three years that teaches English to refugees. and our whole goal is to help get more refugees educated on how to speak English. yeah, my, my wife grew up, as a third culture kid and the concept of third culture kid is her parents were both from the United States, but my wife was born in Singapore as a missionary and then was raised in Turkey. as a missionary until she was 18 and she moved back to the States and Turks didn't recognize her as Turkish and people in the US didn't recognize her as from the States because she grew up in the US. She grew up in Turkey, but she was American. So she, she had this weird amalgamation that has a third culture and specifically in the children of refugees. that is often the case because they are from another nation, but that nation doesn't recognize them as from there because they were raised in a different nation. The nation that they go to doesn't recognize them as that nation either because they're citizens and from a different nation. So we've been really involved in specifically teaching English and love working with the kids because my wife has this unique ability to actually have a deep level of empathy, which is very difficult because most people are not this weird amalgamation with their culture. And then I used to teach English, surprisingly, maybe not unsurprisingly. I'm not a very good English teacher. I'm only really good at teaching marketing apparently. So as much as I like was willing to help and volunteer just like it's not my skill set again. Because I write marketing copy. I don't write like proper English grammar copy. Also, you wouldn't call it copy. It's just writing anyway. So what I found is I now help the leaders that are primarily just good at English teaching. they are not, they don't know how to grow a program. It's about all I know how to do is how to grow stuff. so we've just been focused on building out an annual content calendar with specific programming and like how to promote those programs and utilize the existing, I actually wrote down a 40 framework of data distribution destination and direction, which is our ABM campaign framework. But I like built a framework for them on like how they should run all of their programs. I'm like, this is great. So like I do that. Every Tuesday night and help them run their postmortems and like structure a teams like I helped them build out other job descriptions for every single role. So there's clear roles and responsibilities in alignment. Everybody knows what they're stepping into versus like I don't know you're going to help out. So anyway, I that's been a lot of fun because again in the context of purpose driven marketing, it feels like and don't be wrong. Like if I ever have a client listen to this, I love working with our clients. I love the work that we do. I genuinely do like. If you've ever heard me talk about ABM, I sound insane because I am so fired up about it. And I mean that. And it's like, it is so fun when you get it right. Sorry, I'm getting fired up about it now, but like, that's all good and well. And I mean that like it's good and it's great work and it's fun when you get it right. And like to see the success and to have that win, like, there's not a better high, but then also to take that same skillset and like help. grow a program that teaches refugees how to acclimate to the US they can actually start to build a similar home and change their change generations. They can get a job that actually pays them decently well so they can send their kids to a good school and their kids can actually become educated and then like two generations from now. These are people that actually have a thriving life. Like that's amazing and I get to help with that so. Yes, I love doing ABM programs, but I also enjoy what I get to do on Tuesday nights and help people learn English through teaching a bunch of volunteers how to do marketing and then running most of it. That's amazing. Before I started this podcast, I actually volunteered for a mental health nonprofit and did all their marketing. So that I totally, totally get it. Yeah. Once the website was up, it was a party. It was, it was good stuff. So pivoting a little bit, reflecting on your experiences in both toxic and supportive work environments, how has it transitioned to leading your own company? Were you prioritized creative freedom? affected your mental health and overall happiness. I don't know. It's just like a weird transition when you become a business owner because like, I think I'm the happiest that I've ever been, but it's because I'm doing everything truly for like our family. I've worked harder than I've ever worked in my life, but like, I also see all the benefits of it. So admittedly, like it's weird because there was like January. It was really like November to March, about five, five months of like probably 11 to 12 hour work days, Monday through Friday and like a half day Saturday. So like my wife really has been a trooper. and you know, when I look at back on that and I've done that for other organizations when I was an employee and I hated it because it was like this sucks, but like, I didn't know what I was building and I didn't understand what I was building and I didn't see the full benefits of all that we were building. Whereas now I see all of it. Like my, my role within the context of an organization is the visionary. You don't mean that as like, I'm just a massive visionary leader. That's like gonna clear up. Like, but I see the vision and my job is to evangelize the vision of our organization to our team. And because I also have the visionary within the organization have a longer term view. So I see the hard work that we're all doing right now. But based on my role, I know in my primary job is to communicate where we're headed, so I see where we're headed and it gets me really excited. So because I just have greater clarity on where we're going and what we're doing in the benefits of the 80 hour week right now that I personally work, which to be clear, we've minimized that and not working like 50 hours a week, which is awesome for my family. That's better like it is better. There's greater sense of purpose and. joy in it. What's more important in my mind though is how it's helped the mental health of our team because the team, and this is my hope, you know, I still meet with our team every week purely to just check up on them. Is it like, how are you doing? What's going on? I had a team member a couple weeks ago that came to me with some very personal stuff and like, They've only been working at this organization for like four months. So like the fact that they felt the psychological safety to share very personal things indicates to me that we're probably building a very safe and welcoming and warm work environment. Overall, I also want to be clear. I've screwed this up already. Like I have a team member that I had to transition out. and it didn't go well. And I don't mean that as like a negative against them. I just mean like, I probably could have done a lot more. to transition them out better. But I've not had to let go of many people in my life. And it's the first person I let go of my own organization. So like, in past roles, I was just like, yeah, the higher ups are up. But like, I am the higher up. Like, that's just me. And yes, there's other people on the team that are in leadership roles. But like, at the end of the day, like, when I let somebody go, it's my decision. And it's like other team members decision. So I still have a lot of room to grow on this if that's but former team member listens to this problem like, yeah, he's not great at this. And that was his experience. And we're taking a lot of notes from how we did that poorly to try to be better. And like, that's unfortunately a part of growing as a leader as well as I am mostly going to fail. Like I'm going to get a lot of things wrong. And my goal is that I get. the right 20 % correct. So the other 80 % of the time where I'm really screwing up as a leader, they're minute and they're like things that people can brush off pretty easily. But in the 20 % where it matters, they actually see like, OK, he is getting it right. And I also think in the context of this leadership and creating the space for mental health components. There is a lot that goes a long way around intention because again, specifically in this context, there are times where there is a crunch moment and like, we just have to get something done. And I understand that there are things that are, that are sucky and like, we have to work through that, but I really need us to work through that after we've gotten through this crunch time. And like, that is not the best thing to say as a leader always. But sometimes that's the reality of like, this is what we have to get done right now. Like we can toss for a moment, but like we got to get back to this. And then once we're through this, let's work through that. so yeah, like I know I'm speaking kind of out of both sides of my mouth of like, I'm doing better, try to make our team doing better, but also like this is never done. And there are moments where I will completely screw up as a leader. Pretty, pretty, pretty bad. And the goal is just that the intention and the times that I get it correct outweigh those where I don't. Yeah, I think it's really that's that makes a lot of sense. I think it's really important. It's where it counts, right? You gotta ace it where it counts. And then we can try. Where we can try. You can try to ace it where it counts and then we learn. Pick ourselves back up and try again. Yeah, and like. Again, this is probably not the perfect answer, but I think it's a very real answer of like. In the context of people where I screwed this up, there were people that have like me three years ago and planted as their mind is the person that I am, but I've grown a lot in the past three years. and I do it myself. There's actually an SDR, at a company five years ago that was atrocious to me. And I like branded them in my mind as like, that's how they like go to market. And I like, wouldn't talk to that company for four years. Well, I ended up becoming good friends with their co -founder and it was just like one. Ridiculous SDR and he's also grown in his career. He's like a really good guy now and like knows how to actually do stuff He was just desperate for like two months and like I Know that there are people that probably met me Three four or five years ago, and that's who they still think I am But I've grown a lot as a leader and hopefully have better space for actually taking care of people Yeah, my hope on that front as well as like As much as we want to give space for our team members to have effective mental health. one of the best things that I've seen from former leaders that have actually reconnected with, they've actually apologized and said, Hey, I was under a ton of pressure as a leader and I'm sorry for how I treated you in that moment. Like, will you forgive me? I'm like, of course, like you had a moment. Everybody has a moment. but that's kind of, I think as much as this is a podcast for revenue leaders on how to like create mental health, or how to have healthy, How do I say this appropriately? How to create a healthy work environment for themselves so they can be mentally healthy and also how they do that for their team members. Like to people listening. Like I'm a first time business owner. I get a lot wrong. I get so much wrong. It's not even funny. But I have great team members that feel like we're all in it together in Grammy grace and I just wish a lot of other leaders had that too. Love that. That's awesome. And I think it's a very, very real answer. Last question before we see where to find you. Looking ahead, what advice would you give to people listening struggling to find balance and purpose in their work, especially in higher pressure environments like revenue? People hate this answer, but it's a real answer. Write your obituary. This was something that I stole from Donald Miller on. He's got a book called Hero on a Mission. And when I started to view myself as a hero on a journey, and that sounds really arrogant and cocky, but I mean that in a very serious way of like, I'm living out a story. And in my context, like I have a higher purpose in calling. that I believe I have been called to by God. I mean that seriously can guarantee none of it has much of anything to do with how much revenue I actually generate for anybody. But it's how I treat other people and it's the work that I do is the quality of work that I stand by because I am representation of the faith that is the Christian faith like and I need to be very high character and high quality and actually deliver on what I promise I will deliver like that is what I'm held up against. So like that's not my purpose. Something that lives out from my purpose, but that's not my purpose. My purpose is not to create great quality ABM programs. The purpose is to love people well, and treat people with dignity and respect and to ideally through my interactions with them, give them a glimpse of what it's like to know Jesus. That's actually my purpose in life. So like that's my goal. bad days at work that are gonna happen are gonna come and go but like because I'm rooted into a purpose that I think is higher than anything else that I do it's okay like it's just a day or it's just a week or it's just a month or it's just a quarter or just a season and as long as you have that rooting you're good to go which is why I say write your obituary because the question is then when you write your obituary what do you want to be said about you when you're gone is it that you generated so much revenue? for ACME organization that you hit President's Club five years in a row? Probably not. For me, it's that I want my daughter to know that she has a present dad that was a really good husband and that really, really loved the Lord. That happened around a company that took care of people well, both clients and team members. That's what I want. And I want the money that we make to go towards funding things. that have nothing to do with B2B tech at all because that's my goal. My friend told me to fund the church. So I need to send people on mission trips. I need to invest in nonprofit organizations that spread the gospel. And then I need to make time and space for myself to go do the same. That's it. So I don't think you find your purpose in work. Super crazy concept. I think your job and how you live in your job flows out of the work. or out of your purpose, but it's like my purpose is not to build a business. My purpose is not to build AVM programs. It'd be really depressing. So that's the first component, right? Your obituary, identify what the actual purpose is. And then once you've done that, there are going to be times and seasons in which what you do doesn't align to your purpose. Like I worked in an organization in which I worked 80 hour weeks consistently with no end in sight. I was not able to have a life. I was given almost no heads up ever and I had to do international travel. Kinda frequently. Like I literally could not have a life which is an impact of my ability to live out my purpose and as a result I had to change jobs. That was all fine. So again, that's the thought process is like right. Your obituary identify with your purpose is what do you want to be said about you when you're gone and then live your life into that? If there's things that you do in your day job that don't allow you to live into it, is it a season? If it's a season, that might be OK. Like, it's OK to take a break for a quarter or six months from, like, the greater sense of purpose. Because, like, you got a long time. Like, a career for a lot of people now is 40 years. It's OK if there's six months that's a little bit off track. But like. If it's a if it's an extended season and there's no end in sight where you get back on track to what you identify is your purpose, take a transition. It's as simple as that. Like what? Sorry, last thought. One of the things that we do for our team that I'm in the process of doing with every single one of our teamers is called a personal road map. I want to understand where our team members want to go in their life. I'm gonna figure how I can help them get there both while they're here and then after they're gone because they will probably only work here for like three to five years. I'd be pumped. If they worked here for three to five years, it'd be amazing. So identifying again for yourself, most employers will not do that. That is super weird to like sit down with your boss and be like, all right, where do you want to go next three to five years? Most people won't do that. And if they do, they won't be honest with their boss because they're like, I'm probably going to leave here in two years, which is fine. So identify where you want to go. And then again, how does your job fit into that? And if it doesn't, that's OK. Make a new try. Make a change. When I say it like that, that makes it sound super easy. It's not. It's. really freaking hard. But also, sorry, there's another thing that I saw recently is like that first, that next step is super hard and scary sometimes. What's even scarier is when you're on the exact same step a year later and you've made zero progress. So again, if you recognize like this is not it for me, make a transition and that may take time, but like make progress every single day because you recognize how you're playing into a longer term purpose for your life. And that's my soapbox. I could I could listen to it all day. Well, this was a this was great. Where where can we find you? Yeah, I mean, honestly, I don't talk about this a ton in my life, so I'm glad to have the opportunity to share a little bit about it. I'm all over LinkedIn, sometimes unfortunately for people because I talk a lot about ABM and I have a really cute daughter, so I post a lot of photos of her. I'm also. like you mentioned in the beginning about my own podcast called Scrap A B where we talk exclusively about like how do you go build an A B program? and honest to goodness, I don't know what happened, but like I somehow got lined up for like 12 webinars this summer. So I'll just be all over webinars talking about A B so if you follow any B to B tech companies, I might be doing a webinar with them. and hey, if you want to do a webinar with me, I'm apparently doing that a lot now, so I'm happy to keep that train rolling. so yeah, those are the places you can find me again. LinkedIn podcast to scrap the ABM. We have an email list if you want our playbooks. You can go to scrap the abm .com and sign up there. And if you want to work with somebody that we didn't even talk about ABM at all, but like that's what I actually do for a living that makes money and helps people in the marketing world. So if you want to do that, go to scrap abm .com and you can fill out a form and schedule a call. Those are all the places to find me. Awesome. Well, this was great. Thank you so much, Mason. Yeah, thank you for having me.