Jolie Shapiro00:00.933
Welcome to the Revenue Mind Podcast. We're leaders talk about all things mental health. I'm Julie, your host and a big welcome to Alex. Welcome, Alex.
Alex Boyd00:08.846
Thank you, Julie. It's good to be here.
Jolie Shapiro00:11.205
Yeah, thank you so much for joining. Super excited to dive into the questions. But before we dive in, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Alex Boyd00:20.526
I am from San Francisco, been in Portland the last maybe 10 or so years. I'm the founder of Revenues N, a B2B marketing agency, and also AWARE, a LinkedIn engagement SaaS. Apart from that, I'm an investor and acquirer of other businesses and coach to several founders and mostly of agencies, but a couple of SaaS companies. And yeah, I'm feeling like every year of life gets a little bit better. So that's me and what I'm doing.
Jolie Shapiro01:01.413
I love that perspective. That's awesome. And you have your LinkedIn post or bomb. I think you posted one this morning. I didn't get a chance to read it. What do you mind telling the audience what was about?
Alex Boyd01:12.814
it was a post about a lesson learned from my time at a catering job where I should have followed through on something, but I assumed someone else had it and my manager set me straight. And so I learned a valuable lesson of follow through from not bringing a guest coffee that asked for coffee. And I said, I would do it, but well, I said I would get them coffee. And then I assumed one would bring them coffee because he was going around. but ownership dictates that I make sure that guest got coffee and I didn't. So it didn't happen again.
Jolie Shapiro01:48.005
That's a great marketing lesson. Actually, I think I posted something a while ago about I had an exploding coffee machine before I got my Breville. And I think I've related it to marketing, but I don't remember the connection. But there's always something you learn. Every job that I've ever had, I've taken something from how to open boxes to how to make everything super organized. So love it. Okay, so now onto the questions. So I know we had like a, you know, conversation before this, so just going to dive in a little deeper. So during conversation, you touched on the particular kind of pressure that comes with revenue roles. How has this impacted your rental well -being differently than roles where performance isn't constantly under the microscope?
Alex Boyd02:37.198
I remember a role where it wasn't under the microscope so much as far as performance. I mean, unless we're talking about a part -time job, but since I started in sales and then was in sales and sales leadership and then after that entrepreneur, it's, there's never been a time when it wasn't. So I'd say I'm more resilient for sure. So there's definitely been some positives. The negatives to contend with are that your monthly income is dependent on how well you do and whether people say yes to certain things or no. So learning to accept variability and to use that opportunity to get better has been a really good opportunity, actually. I think being in a performance -based role for me has been great for that reason. I think it's made me less... focused on the traditional kind of security that most people need or think they need. And so it's just maybe better in that way. But at the same time, it's made a lot harder in sometimes. Like week one of COVID was really, really hard because I didn't have that like, just everyone takes some time to be at home and just sort of. break sourdough and watch Netflix. And it was the opposite. I was like, I have to show up more than ever to grow and retain and pay the bills and so forth in this time. So there have been times when it was really, really hard, but on balance it's been, I mean, I think more people should be in a performance -based, at least to some extent, a performance -based role because of the resilience it creates.
Jolie Shapiro04:28.549
Completely agree and think the resilience and it gives you a sense of balance and structure. Something that, and a sense of purpose too. So completely agree with that. Something else that we got into, it's interesting that you mentioned the addictive nature of some work environments and the pursuit of achievement. I know that's a big deal in revenue roles. How do you personally walk the line between ambitious being, excuse me, let me try this again. I'm gonna redo this. Love that. So just pivoting a little bit, it's interesting you mentioned the addictive nature of some work environments and the pursuit of achievement. How do you personally walk the line between ambitiously being driven and not falling into the trap of being obsessed with success?
Alex Boyd05:15.438
I think a lot of people are, right? I mean, in any career, you can have this drive for money that doesn't really have an end because there isn't really an end to how much you can accumulate. I think a couple of things have been really helpful. One is to know why you are driving for success and making money from it. I assume those two are connected for most people because if they weren't, then it'd be a different sort of question. But why are you making money? And there can be a goal, right? You can have a certain line in the sand that doesn't change except for like inflation, right? Around which certain things can change. So if you've accumulated a certain amount, you can actually behave differently, choose different jobs, take more time off and so forth. There's the priority of it. Do you prioritize? accumulating wealth or income or are you prioritizing family health, physical health or other things? I think too the fact that people often do better in a revenue or marketing role, right, and then increase their lifestyle is tough and creates that sort of... addictive behavior because you have an uncertain reward system, like a variable reward system at your job, where you might make more money if you do certain things, if the quarter goes well, if the stock goes up. So you have this like kind of slot machine like behavior. So just being aware of that is incredibly important. And then not increasing your lifestyle in accordance with how much you make is also ideal. I think there's actually a good aspect of revenue roles in this way, because if your base salary is not. the majority of your compensation, then you learn to live on a lower amount than when you get your commission, your bonus, then you're not used to spending that every month. Whereas if it's like, you're a VP of marketing and 80 % of your comp is space, then you're probably gonna adjust your lifestyle up to your base and the bonus amount won't let you actually suck any of that away. So I think there's, and this has happened including with... with other founders of coach and other companies where I've seen people say like, I really need this base. This base style is important to me. And it's like, okay, I can see that you've really like drawn a line in the sand and you've brought your lifestyle up to exactly this number and you're gonna freak out if you don't get it. So yeah, if you can undo that and be aware of it, then it'll be a lot easier to accommodate like a performance based environment that doesn't require you. to maintain that salary every day, every paycheck to keep it because then it's just like, you won't be so addictive about it. It'll be just like, let's try for more. Let's play the game well, but it's not so desperately necessary. But yeah, the combination of the variable reward system at work where like you might get money, you might not. And then the adjustment of lifestyle up to an increasing base. those two things together can be really tricky unless you're first aware of them. So just the mindful awareness of those two things happening, I think, has been huge to avoid that. And if you avoid that, then you can actually accumulate more of the income you bring in without needing to constantly get more to afford all the stuff that you want.
Jolie Shapiro08:57.573
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I'd love to hear about your personal story with mental health and how your general sense of well -being has shifted as you've moved through different phases of your, excuse me, how do I do that? I'd love to hear about how your mental health and general sense of well -being have shifted as you move through different phases of your career. You've been at everything from agencies to SAS and then in -house growth roles and now an entrepreneur. Tell me a little bit about that.
Alex Boyd09:27.79
Well, I think that what I sort of described with becoming aware of how I was thinking about, you know, success and ambition was one of the first things. I think I had several years ago this thought that if I were to, you know, heal some of these thought patterns, I would probably be slightly worse in the short term at some of these things. In other words, like having a chip in my shoulder was really helping me in some areas. And I think that's true. Like, you can work longer and harder and sort of be more manically passionate about what you're doing if you have like an unearthly need to succeed that's above and beyond just, you know, like a healthy drive. And I had that. And I'm pleased to say that I think I was wrong. I think that my potential is more uncapped with less of that manic drive. So I can kind of go from, you know, manic ambition to putting that in perspective to, you know, wanting to do well and sort of achieving meaning and purpose through my work, rather than it being something I need to prove. But a lot of people I think are going around thinking I need to prove a lot to someone in their life, whether it's themselves, a parent, another, you know, figure that they have something to prove to. And if we can somehow like, I'll come eyes that from the need to prove into, that desire to play the game, well, and live a life well lived and, you know, work as part of that, then that's super healthy. And I think that you can go further as a result. I'm going to try to prove that as I've taken that part of my journey, but I'm kind of like really coming into that part of, of it. I think I'm now in the chapter where I really don't have a lot to prove it. I'm just like, okay, let's. let's do and build and find things that are meaningful and work on them without it being a need. So going from like the need to, you don't need to, I want. Need, don't need, want is a really great pattern to go through. There's that middle part of don't need where you might actually do a little bit worse because you don't need to as much and you haven't found that next thing. But I think if more people went past that, that would be better. there's a lot of people, especially on LinkedIn too, with like you can tell from reading what they post that they have a lot to prove and it's going to be a long hamster wheel of a career if we never get past that point.
Jolie Shapiro12:00.837
I completely agree. When I lost my job a couple months ago, there was a company where I'd lay off and I just, I've always had this innate drive. I called 50 labels back in college until I got a record label internship. That kind of like, you know, manic, manic drive that you spoke about. But I agree. I think when, one thing that I wish I did, was fine balance. My boyfriend called it bulldozing. I basically was up at 6 a applying for jobs until 6 p passing out for two hours, waking up, maybe doing something for myself, probably not, and then going back to sleep. And it's just, and what's the point? If I space it out a little bit, just a little bit, maybe I could've been a little more sane. And I think it really... That's kind of like the after action that I have. What did I learn from this? Maybe, you know, taking my dog on a longer walk or exercising or and not just having that tunnel vision of I need to do this. I have to prove this to myself. I have to be X, Y, Z. So I love that. That really resonated with me.
Alex Boyd13:19.534
Yeah, there's a lot more, there's different roles that people will want to hire you for if you're in desperate need to prove versus, you know, drive that's underpinned by meaning and purpose. A lot of people want to hire lower level roles for people that have that desperate need to prove because they're sort of exploiting the desperate need to prove into, you know, like an SDR, like an early stage growth role. And, but you don't want to hire executives like that.
Jolie Shapiro13:44.901
Mm -hmm.
Alex Boyd13:49.806
which is a difference. You don't hire executives with that big a chip on their shoulder. So it's not that you wouldn't get a job in that state of mind, it's that you might not get the right one, or the one that's gonna be best for you. So yeah, I don't even think it's about balance only for the sake of balance and for you, but like, you know, balance for the, that has this like side benefit for what kind of energy you're putting in the world and who's gonna hire for what based on that kind of energy. So thank you. are making the right well, I don't know how far you've gone on that, but if you are choosing that, then I think that's the right choice to do. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro14:28.709
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, once I relaxed, it's funny, once I relaxed, went out to a ski town in Colorado, hung out with my family, went snowboarding, hung out with my puppies, the jaw fell into my, not fell into my lap, but it ended up working out and it was the right job. And that it's kind of like when you take a step back, that's when things happen. And I learned that the hard way. So I really appreciate you saying that. So moving on a little bit, I'd love to hear how your mental health and general sense of well -being have shifted as you've moved. I already asked this, sorry about that. Let me redo that. I highlight questions so I can see and then I re -highlighted it twice. Okay. Thank you so much for sharing and really, really appreciate it. So you significantly emphasize personal growth and mental health in your journey. Could you share?
Alex Boyd15:12.302
Nice.
Jolie Shapiro15:25.797
moment or insight that really sparked this focus.
Alex Boyd15:29.59
There's been a few. Some of them have been at my first job, I probably did not leave on the best of terms. I could have left more professionally. And sort of that was a moment to zoom out and think about, okay, I thought I don't care about burning these bridges. But I should have, and it was more about who I was as a person than whether these bridges need to be kept or burned. And so that allowed me to zoom out a little bit. Later on, just there's something my sales manager asked, which is at the next job, which was, you know, is it, do you think it's better to? be in the heat of it in terms of, you know, striving or conflict or whatever, or is the celebration at the end better? And I was like, well, obviously the celebration at the end, he was just like, I don't know about that. And I was like, you're, you know, you're full of it. You're just trying to like, you know, rah rah sales manage here. But then I thought about it later and though he didn't deliver that advice in the best way, it did get me thinking. And I think he was right in a way that it's not really about working until one can be idle, but rather about, finding a way to enjoy the journey of it, which is seems like obvious advice, but I don't think we apply it to to work as much. I think we have this like, we don't enjoy the journey of work where we could. And I think the moment you meet people who have accumulated enough money to quote unquote, retire and then done it. And then after three months of watching everything on Netflix and going snowboarding every day, they actually don't enjoy it. Like really, really actually don't. And they go back to doing something, whatever it is. So kind of an inspiration to enjoy the journey of work. And then another moment was when somebody like who I was going to go into business with before Revenues End essentially manipulated me into signing things I shouldn't have signed and... If I wanted to move forward in my career at all, I pretty much had to either like dramatically curtail what I was doing or settle for a huge amount of money. And I accumulated a lot of anger at this person for basically just like, in my view, being a bad person, but having like a gotcha moment where like the system was probably more in their favor than mine. And there was a moment where I was feeling very angry about this and I just like made a choice to not let it go for their sake, but for mine. And I just felt this like draining energy from head to toe of letting the anger drain out and just thinking, I'm just gonna move forward and not let this inhabit me because it will. It'll stick with me and inhabit me and this grudge will just eat me alive if I let it. And so more of those moments are great. The moments where you decide to put something down that really doesn't help you at all and is about someone else. But when we decide that what we're feeling is our choice, it's easy to say and very, very hard to do when you're in the heat of a very tough moment or time. But being able to get to that point has been invaluable. So yeah, I... paid the giant settlement and moved on. And really, I don't know if I would build the kind or size of businesses that I did if I hadn't had that. So, almost glad it happened in a way. I sort of wish it hadn't, but I think I did bigger things as a result. I have more moments like that, you know, all the time where someone says something and they didn't mean to, but it pushes me forward. So, Yeah, I would just say to people to stay on the lookout for those types of moments where you can pick up something and learn something and not even when it's dressed up as advice, it might even be dressed up as something else. But those moments are everywhere if you care to look. Thank you. hear you.
Jolie Shapiro20:06.117
I'm mute. Thank you.
Alex Boyd20:06.254
Thank you guys.
Jolie Shapiro20:10.757
That really resonates with me. Over the past, probably 12 years, I've gone through several challenges and you start thinking to yourself, why me? And if you're religious, you question religion. If you, you know, you question XYZ in front of you. And in the end, you really can't choose the cards you're dealt, but you can choose what to do with them. And every day is a choice. So I really, really like that. I think that makes a lot of sense. And honestly, when I hold grudges, I realize that the person it's hurting the most is me.
Alex Boyd20:50.702
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro20:51.013
and not the other person. The other person isn't really, they forgot. They're not really paying attention. I mean, they are, they are paying attention. If they're a really good friend, obviously they'll apologize, but most people don't, they're mostly focused on themselves at the end of the day.
Alex Boyd20:55.086
Yeah. Yeah, they're not against you. They're just for their own situation.
Jolie Shapiro21:11.301
Yeah, is that where revenue then came from? Like, all that kind of stuff you went through? Is that the Zen part? Is that where that came from?
Alex Boyd21:19.758
I think so. I think it was, well, I chose the name before that, but yeah, the names of my companies thus far tended to have like my influence oriented names. I think just because I felt, especially in tech and B2B, it's such an aspiration that's missing. And so yeah, being able to go through such a journey of ups and downs and just the things we do in revenue or so. not Zen, that bringing some to it would be good. And even like the actual practice of Zen, which is very strict and formulaic, and there's like a freedom in the form from it, I thought was interesting. A lot of people don't find freedom in the form, they're just sort of everywhere, revenueing and this, that and the other tactic and growth hack and very non Zen, not just not very mindful, but very non Zen and. Even more people would do well to pay attention to the freedom in the form from something like actual Zen practice and apply that to what they're doing every day and week as far as how they're, you know, looking at growth, the tactics they're choosing, the people they hire and fire and so forth. So it kind of came from that. But that moment I described came after the naming. Perhaps I was just being aspirational for myself.
Jolie Shapiro22:47.525
That's great. I feel like it became, it was growth at all costs and then efficiency. We had no in between with revenue. So I love that you, yeah, it's just, now we're gonna be efficient with half the marketing budget cut. And I really like the sentiment behind your name. So.
Alex Boyd22:59.246
Yeah, all of a sudden.
Jolie Shapiro23:16.101
We talked about navigate in our, let me start that over. So in our previous conversations before this call, we navigated, God damn it, sorry. It's been, I just got back from a 10 day road trip, so my brain's a little. Yeah, road trip was great, but I hiked for 10 days straight, so I'm a little, little physically tired. That's transferring to my brain.
Alex Boyd23:33.422
Good chips and nice. Cool.
Jolie Shapiro23:44.197
So let me try this again. All right. So we talked a little bit about toxic work environments. So without getting into specifics, could you share how you managed to keep your mental health in check during those times and any advice that you'd like to offer other people?
Alex Boyd24:04.046
I think people will often get tested in those environments and the world won't set boundaries for you. So you'll need to set them yourself. If your manager asks for a one on one at 11 p which happened to me regularly, just declining it, you know, and not trying to think of it not as a personal front, but just as a boundary that you need to maintain. I think a lot of people assume that the company or someone else will maintain boundaries for them and really nobody will except you if you choose to do it. So just not taking it personally is the biggest part of it. Once you've decided to not take it personally and to not think that people are like out to get you in against you, they're really just like, there's just chaos and chaos is kind of the default state of things. Think okay, chaos is default. Nobody will maintain boundaries with me. I'll maintain my own boundaries. And just depersonalizing that it's, again, a lot of things I've mentioned are tough to do, but that really is the thing to be aware of is, are you maintaining your own boundaries? Sometimes you'll get an amazing person who will help maintain them for you, like a mentor or someone, but that's a bonus. If you find that person, that's wonderful, but don't. say and then you know leave like once once you've been able to if you can't change it yourself so if you can't really bring peace to a chaotic environment and yourself through a leadership role then you might have to leave but again don't let it eat you up and don't take it personally again it's not about you you weren't usually the company wasn't like all out to get you maybe in some exception you know that that was that happened for, I'm not gonna downplay anyone's experience where that did actually happen, but I've generally found that it's not about you, it's about everyone's just running around trying to do stuff and they're just not thinking of you. So think of yourself and then make sure other people know how to interact with you, because it'll create a lot of peace around you if you know what your boundaries are and you maintain them calmly, which is a tough thing to do again, but. If you master that, that's a life skill more than just a work skill.
Jolie Shapiro26:32.677
I completely agree and that goes back to balance and boundaries. I love that. On my onboarding with my HR manager, she said, if you need a block time to do work because your head's down in meetings for three days, do it. If you need to go to the doctor, do it. And those kinds of... I actually really evaluate jobs. Probably number one is culture for me. being, you know, having certain challenges in my life, I do need that. I do need a very nurturing, warm culture where you still work really hard, but you have just incredible people. And I'm really happy I found that. It sounds like your organization is, and the businesses you built have the same vibe. So that's, that's awesome.
Alex Boyd27:27.566
I'd like to think so. Yeah, I mean, we've always been in the type of company that, you know, where that was the thing to do. Like you said, if you have an appointment, that's just sort of your business. But we've been remote from the start. And the way that people work nowadays has always been how we worked for seven plus years. So for us, it was an easy transition, just actual work -wise, style -wise, because there was no like, go, remote go back to the office. We didn't really have a necessary office to go into in the first place. We also didn't hire junior people for whom it was their first job. So that helped a ton. But yeah, from that, in that sense, it was an easy transition because people were like, I really liked my old job in all ways, except that they wouldn't let me take my, take my getup from school at 3pm. I had to. you know, have them do stuff until at least four third again, then I could go. Whereas we just said, like if your goal is your goal, whenever you want to get it done, as long as you're making your meetings, and that's totally fine. But, you know, nobody's looking over your shoulder as to whether your button seat from nine to five or whatnot. I certainly wasn't. We'd notice if they were, you know, missing meetings, not hitting goals generally and so forth. But that's a different conversation than, you know, Why were you not at your desk at this time or why are you not available on Slack? I can't stand the like, you have to be a like green dot on Slack till 5pm thing. Like a lot of people say that's a real thing and it's so foreign to me and I wouldn't even think about it unless I had people in my life saying, you know, I have to be online showing the green dot on Slack until, until five. high level people making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. It's just kind of silly to me. but some cultures are like that. So. Good for you for avoiding those.
Jolie Shapiro29:27.301
Yeah, yeah, good for you for building those.
Alex Boyd29:30.286
Thanks.
Jolie Shapiro29:31.557
Yeah, of course. So just having a little bit, the idea that the grass may be greener elsewhere is very common, as cliche as that is. How has your view of what truly constitutes success changed over time, especially given things that you've gone through with mental health?
Alex Boyd29:50.286
Well, I think I've tried to make transitions when it actually was the right idea. But there have been a lot of times where I thought something would be much easier. But I have adapted. I just, I think, thought a lot about it before I did. And there are some times I think, OK, well, if I was in this business model or that one, or was not running my own businesses, but... employed somewhere, there would be easier things about that. And I've tried to just not look so hard at those things that I lose sight of the benefits of what I have built. But other times, I've noticed that the grass might be greener. And if I'm aware of all the things, I don't complain about it. I just do that thing. So... like my company started out as mostly a sales and lead gen consultancy. We were doing SDR as a service. I really was thinking that the grass might be greener on the side of this other business line that was going really well, which was more like B2B content marketing and SEO. But instead of complaining about the grass being green, I just sort of walked over to the new grass and we pivoted. And now I think some people will remember when we were in SDR agency, but most people are like, They don't even have a sense of that because we just made that transition. So sometimes the grass is greener. If it really is and you're confident about that, then go do it. Don't complain about it. And I find that if people are complaining and not doing, that's usually a sign that their body's telling them that it might not all be perfect where they're looking. And that's keeping them from acting. In which case, you know, trying to complain so much, right? but it's either you can stay or you can go. But staying and complaining is usually the worst of all worlds. This is not saying like, you know, stay at imperfect jobs indefinitely just because there's some benefit to it. I think it's just a matter of if you're gonna go, go, but don't stick around and do yourself harm in the process and your coworkers harm in the process by. being unhappy about it. But also know when to adapt. I started in financial sales and now I'm running a B2B SEO agency. Well, I guess not running. Owning a B2B SEO agency and running a LinkedIn SaaS tool. So plenty of adaptation. So I can't say never fall out to green grass, but I've tried not to complain so much about where I am instead of just saying, that to me, if I want to go, I can do it. I can create that bridge over somewhere else. So if you can bias for action, you think you'll be a lot happier.
Jolie Shapiro32:53.861
Agree, love that. And I think it actually is funny. So one, it may be not funny, but it, I think it goes back to work and life. If you, if you complain about, you know, if you have high cholesterol or maybe not diabetes type one, because that's a, I'm gonna start that over. Hold on. Okay. No, that really resonates. That really resonates with me. It's funny. It's kind of like when you want to, when you want to exercise and you don't and you keep talking about it and you don't do it. And then you talk about it for the six months. So it doesn't happen, but when you finally do it and take that leap of faith and, and then you start feeling stronger and better. Like I was, I was talking with someone else in a different, pot, my podcast. And I was like, when I spin, my partner says I'm like, Julie 5 .0. Like my mood is just. another level. And I'm chasing the high, I'm chasing the adobe me and I completely admit it. And it's I think it applies to just all aspects of your life. So I really resonate with that. Are there any essential habits or approaches you found incredibly beneficial or wrong the topic?
Alex Boyd34:19.63
for specifically keeping in good health. Yeah, a lot lately actually. There's the typical like, I don't post about it, but I do actually start, my wife and I start our day with breath work and a cold plunge. So we have like a morning routine and we get in the ice bath for three minutes and we do we have half breathing while grinding our bare feet in the grass. I don't post about it. But we do. So like that's, that's super helpful in terms of like a long arc of dopamine release. A cold plunge definitely does that. So, you know, it feels good to get out and be like kind of shivering, but then more naturally. And that's your body's going to respond by giving a lot of good feelings over the next several hours. So. Yeah, I mean, it's funny, like, I love to laugh at an Instagram influencer, just like, here's my, you know, ridiculous morning routine, primarily because it's such an exaggerated, like, caricature of it. But some of those things do actually have a lot of science behind them and they will help. I recommend just doing it and not posting on social media about it, which coming from me may seem like, you know, like laughable, but I actually like don't post about most of my life. I actually post mostly about this one thing and it's like very like a focused content strategy. It's not like a personal attention seeking thing. So yeah, look into some of those things. The other part of this is, I mean, I'm kind of drilling on physical health because it has been such a good benefit to me is just. fixing nutrient deficiencies and going to see a naturopath and getting all my sort of blood and hormones tested and figuring out what my body needs that I'm not getting. I was tired all the time, now I'm on my supplement routine and I'm not. I have consistent energy all day. Your physical health and gut health will have a huge impact on mental health. And a lot of people make decisions based on what they think is mental health and it really is physical health that's kind of. just infecting the brain really. And I find that if, in addition to exercise, right, some of those things would help mental health too. The opposite applies as well. If you're in a bad scenario, only working on physical health won't help. You can't stay in a bad situation or environment with a bad business partner or a boss that is very toxic and only meditate and... do breath work, right? Like doing those things won't solve the problem. So there's, it's funny, like the typical mental health. benefit activities, right? Like mindfulness, breathing, meditation, gratitude. If physical health is poor, if you're in a bad environment, none of those things are gonna actually have much of an impact. It's at best a mitigation technique. I think that's why people laugh off all those things is because they don't work unless you fix the other stuff. Unless your blood sugar and energy levels allow you to have a good energy, you won't. No matter all the breathing you do. you can have the healthiest practices in your life, but if every conversation with your boss triggers you into just a state of absolute overwhelm, none of the other stuff's going to matter. So you have to pair all the mental health benefiting activities with physical and environmental health benefiting activities too, or it's not going to work. so that's why I'm investing in all the other things in addition to, you know, quote unquote, like straight up mental health. beneficial things.
Jolie Shapiro38:12.197
Yeah, I think that's a great point. I've had friends that have mental illness and they've been with incredibly, in incredibly abusive situations and they've had to opt their medicine and they've had, in work environments and they had, and their psychiatrist said quit. Cause it's just, you can't, you can't sacrifice, you can't, well not you can't, I don't want to say you can't, but you could.
Alex Boyd38:29.71
Yeah. could, would be great.
Jolie Shapiro38:40.997
You can, yeah, you can choose to sacrifice your mental health for that million dollar a year paycheck, but you might, you know, you might regret it in some way, shape or form. So I think it goes back to, you know, about culture and finding the right place and having a sense of purpose. And it's kind of like you mentioned the three prong approach. I really like that. You can't have the...
Alex Boyd38:52.526
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro39:10.149
You need to have the physical, mental, and environmental to really sustain and maintain a healthy, balanced life. So that's really great.
Alex Boyd39:17.486
Yeah, upping your meds and then doing more meditation while keeping the same trigger in place that was causing it is not, it's not gonna work. It's not gonna have an effect. Your body is telling you what it needs, so you just have to listen to it.
Jolie Shapiro39:31.333
Exactly. Yeah, I am. And speaking of gut biome to totally sidestep, to totally sidetrack, I started taking this supplement, or started taking two supplements. One was a multivitamin, the other was called pendulum. And my energy is just well, plus my spin obsession. But my energy, now that my gut is a little bit is, you know, more, more balanced. And and I'm getting the nutrients I need, it doesn't all have to be psychiatric medication for people. It can also be homeopathic. So finding the right balance physically and mentally is great. That's a really solid point. So a couple more questions here. Looking back at your achievements, including successfully exiting a business, congratulations. How have these, of course, how have these milestones shaped your mental health? Are there any common...
Alex Boyd40:19.054
Thank you.
Jolie Shapiro40:25.029
misconceptions about the impact of such achievements.
Alex Boyd40:29.39
Yeah, I think it kind of goes back to knowing like what your lines are for financial success. So I have, you know, as you can imagine from the things I post, I have a detailed financial forecast for our household. So for me, like I chose the exit path that wasn't trying to maximize all cash upfront because I didn't need it. I knew, okay, what I'm really trying to do, my goal right now is to bias for a certain amount of cash flow every month from a diversified set of sources. So it helped me very confidently choose a path for exiting from revenue. And I'm not actually exiting, I'm just, but I did do like a partial kind of restructuring of my ownership of it and bringing in another partner who mostly acquired us. And so that helped me just say, okay, I'm not just. blindly trying to accumulate money, I'm trying to get to a certain place. And the strategy was, I get to this place, then I can choose what to work on without as much respect to how much it pays me now. So if you can choose something that pays you less now and maybe more later, and just has more risk generally, then you can go further. You can potentially do more fun things. You can build products that don't pay you right now, but might pay you later. rather than saying, well, I have to have this salary or just gonna stop paying our bills. So I think people look at it as just like, you have to make like a bunch of money and we don't really know how much a bunch is just a bunch and then you can stop working. But that's not a happiness inducing path at all because what people miss is once you've become the type of person who can accumulate wealth, you'd... become the type of person who does not really want to be idle. It's really only people who inherited a bunch of money that are okay being idle, and they're really unhappy as well. So this notion that you should try for an exit so that you can stop working is not gonna help. It might help you not work, but it won't help you be happy. So you may as well figure out what kind of work you really wanna do, regardless of... how much it pays now or later, and then try to figure out a way to do that. For some people that's saying, okay, my definition of success is to only buy used cars, live in a modest apartment and maximize the haliton income and healthy work environment while living way, way below my means. So I can sock off enough away in treasury bonds that I don't need to choose any shitty environment going forward. And I can start my own business that is a baby product company or something. where I'm probably not gonna get a salary for a year. That might be the definition of success. I think that actually that path is wonderful. But it's definitely not make more money to buy more stuff or to show how much money you're making. So yeah, in terms of like trying to not sacrifice current physical health for long -term success. Sure, I could have gone to work in investment bank, really sacrificed my health in a lot of ways and probably made more money in the short term. But I would also probably have become somebody who wanted to spend more of that income. And I probably have less overall than if I said, OK, I'm going to move from San Francisco to Portland to try to be in a much less consumption oriented culture and to focus on living below my means. And now I'm the type of person who just buys 95 % of my clothes at Costco. And I am that person now. And if I had stayed in San Francisco, I would not be, probably. So that's my version of it. I think just knowing what you're working toward and why will set you free from this like, I wanna make a bunch of money. How much? Why? To do what with? If you can have an answer to those questions, then you'll be a lot happier along the way, I think.
Jolie Shapiro44:41.573
I completely agree. It's like, what's your version of happiness?
Alex Boyd44:46.19
And specifically what level of financial success will allow you to have that? And that's a math problem that you can solve. So the trouble is it's kind of tricky to solve. It involves a good forecasting spreadsheet, but it is solvable. And that's the thing is like, if you can solve it and you're like, okay, I'm not there yet, but I'll probably be there in two and a half years if I do this, this and this, that feels way better than like some, you know, obscure target that doesn't exist way off in the future that just makes it all feel, you know, dreadful. So figure out that target, I think is a good first step.
Jolie Shapiro45:20.165
That'd be a great app.
Alex Boyd45:23.086
That's what I thought about building is like a mint .com or whatever came after it. They don't have that capability. You can't put in cash flow from investments and use that to forecast. And I was like, shit, like you can't even do that in Quicken, like old school Quicken, you can't do that in there either. I was like, man, someone should build that. So stay tuned. We might, but probably take me a few years if we do, but we'll see. For now, I just have a spreadsheet I can copy and paste and spend an hour.
Jolie Shapiro45:31.653
Mm -hmm.
Alex Boyd45:52.814
adapting and like that's the equivalent. So yeah, not a great solution.
Jolie Shapiro45:58.341
Well, you're definitely solving some problems here. Love it. Yeah, for sure. So finally, as you look ahead, how do you see your approach to mental health evolving, especially as you tackle the ups and downs of career, life, personal, professional?
Alex Boyd46:01.518
Fine. I'm heading into a phase where that is likely to be more tumultuous. I think once you, I won't say I've completed the project with Revenues in, but I've, I mean, there's a different CEO, my business partner is CEO. And so there's a transition that's been made. And even though I'm, you know, really in it with aware and growing that, that SaaS, there is a period after you finish a big project in whatever finishing means where there's like a, you have to replace some identity that's been lost. I'm definitely in that phase now where I was revenue zen for a long time, right? It was like, that was like me. It's what I thought about. It's what I did. You know, founder and CEO of this, it's rolled off the tongue. Founder and CEO of revenue zen. It's not true anymore. It rolls off the tongue because it was so bound up. But take that away and some part of you needs to be reformed, right? Like you, the wave comes in and washes out the sand castle and now you're just beach. which is good, there's a calmness of that. There's also some needing to be reformed and not wanting to jump into reforming that identity with something else right away. I don't want a rebound career. So I'm in that mode now where I have to accept that it's a little bit more reflective, a little bit more, a little bit less clear, a little bit more foggy, and to be okay with that. So that's the phase I'm in and going into is. What if in five years I'm not posting on LinkedIn? I'm not even in B2B at all. Might be, we'll see. But that would involve a lot more than a switch of career, that would involve a switch of who I am. So as I look ahead to that and starting a family, and I think every year's getting better for all the things that, the reasons that we've talked about of like, the better your mental health gets, the better life overall is, the better choices you make. And so. Yeah, I wouldn't trade it for the world. I think I'm in a fantastic spot and it's going to keep getting better. But part of that involves like accepting times that are less glorious and more sort of humble. I'm in a humble time, but I'm trying to enjoy it.
Jolie Shapiro48:29.221
agree and then you can enjoy the journey which is one of the hardest things for human beings to do.
Alex Boyd48:36.27
It is. Yeah, very much.
Jolie Shapiro48:39.397
Well, this has been great. Where can people find you if they have questions you want to connect?
Alex Boyd48:43.662
LinkedIn's still the best point of contact. I'm pretty active and if you want to get involved with something I'm working on, whether it's selling your agency to me, having us invest in your company, signing up for aware, doing business with Revenues Inn, LinkedIn's a great way to find me and then I'll be your point of contact to direct traffic from there.
Jolie Shapiro49:06.085
Well, thank you so much, Alex. This was great.
Alex Boyd49:08.269
Thank you, Julie.