Jolie Shapiro00:01.648
All right, we have Evan. Welcome, Evan.
Evan00:03.953
Hey everyone.
Jolie Shapiro00:05.574
So happy you're here.
Evan00:07.49
Yeah, it's good to be here. I'm excited for this conversation and just looking forward to kind of digging in.
Jolie Shapiro00:12.804
Awesome, awesome. So before we get started, what makes you you?
Evan00:16.617
such a tough question. I'm an innately curious person. So I tend to ask sometimes too many questions depending on who you ask, but I like to solve all the problems and remain just curious. That's kind of keeps me unique to myself.
Jolie Shapiro00:38.726
That's so cool. I am actually a lifelong learner myself. I taught myself B2B marketing, about to read probably 10 books on psychology. I get it. My thing is like always be curious instead of always be closing. Yeah, it's an awesome perspective. It's a great perspective for you to have. That's really cool. What do you think inspired that? Were you always like a, you were always a curious person or?
Evan00:55.79
I love that. Yeah, just like innately growing up, you know, always following my parents around, kind of wondering why they were doing things the way they were doing. At times, like I said, they were extremely frustrating for them because I was just that little boy that was like, well, why mom? Why dad? How come? How come? But I think that just like naturally progressed with my career and just like my, you know, kind of growing into an adult. I was just same with marketing. I was curious about it. I got the job off Craigslist. accidentally taught myself paid search on YouTube before my first interview where I pretended to be a marketer. So I think it's just that drive that keeps me going and finding things that I can figure out when there's an interest there.
Jolie Shapiro01:51.612
That's awesome. feel like most of us, well, there's some people that learn by doing and some people that learn the theoretics and then do. But that's really cool. So on to the questions. So first one, looking back, how did leading a team during such a personal loss, thank you for sharing that, shape your perspective on leadership and mental health?
Evan02:18.124
Yeah, this is a tough question to dig into in a way that it kind of opens up a bit. So just for the listeners, fully transparent, last week marks three years that my mom passed away. And at that same time, a month prior to her passing, I was promoted into a VP of demand role and had to build a team of... 15 over the course of the next few weeks because you know, client demands, we are growing naturally. So there was just a lot thrown at me. And I think that as I reflect back on that moment, it really changed my idea of what leadership was. And I had no longer, I always equated it to, I needed to be like unshakable. I needed to be like the shield that was perfect and just presented myself without any sort of troubles or worries or concerns. I didn't want anybody else to absorb that. know, distraught the stress that I brought into the conversation. Then I think that you don't want a leader that is so shielded and narrow minded in a sense that they can't recognize that there are challenges out there and they can't empathize with you. So I think for me, it's just like experiencing that loss while also having one of the highest highs of my career at the moment was the juxtaposition of how do I move forward and how do I think about it? But The end I just had to remain true to myself and I think that's what I've tried to carry forward since then is I have to be humble and I have to just be honest.
Jolie Shapiro03:45.425
I can't even begin to imagine. I'm so sorry. Thank you so much for sharing. Actually, oh sorry, go ahead. You're gonna say.
Evan03:47.976
Thank you. it's a journey but I was just gonna say it's a journey and this is the first time I've outwardly ever spoke of it. So I don't know if that's a good thing about it. I mean, like on a podcast or had conversations remotely. So this is near and dear to my heart. Mental health is important to me. Just thinking about like the world that we're in now is an interesting conversation to take place. And I think this is the perfect kind of world in marketing where we need to have more of these.
Jolie Shapiro03:58.073
wow. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Thank you again so much. Yeah, I actually, I can't imagine my, about a month ago, my mom got diagnosed with stage four lung cancer. No, thank you. And I'm currently at an agency, you know, Agency of Life, here in one. I'm not, you know, VP, but we work really, really hard. So it's, it can be tough. It can be tough to have.
Evan04:27.118
So sorry.
Jolie Shapiro04:43.405
I can't even imagine that level of responsibility and having someone you really care about not be there anymore. So my heart goes out to you.
Evan04:53.752
Totally, yeah. You learn to compartmentalize really well, I think. That's, you know, whether you need to or not. So maybe that's a blessing of the agency life where, you know, everything's a fire drill, it keeps us distracted where we need it most. but all the best.
Jolie Shapiro05:07.2
Yeah, yeah, no, it's actually, I told my boss, said, I'm totally fine taking on 10 pages a day, four days a week, because it's going to keep my mind off everything. Give me the work. So thank you again for sharing. Really appreciate it on the open forum. So just pivoting a little bit. This is a
Evan05:20.59
I feel that. Pretty good.
Jolie Shapiro05:37.019
Pivoting a little bit, redo that. So pivoting a little bit, use a gem as a tool for self care. How do you encourage your team to find their own routines?
Evan05:46.51
Yeah. So for me, fitness has always been a core part of my life, but I found that it's been one of the best de stressors for myself. And it's important for me to communicate that hourly to my team and let them, you know, I have to be transparent about what I'm doing. I have to make it normal and okay to take those breaks and to find that time and space for you to do whatever that is, whether it's just sit and read, whether you want to take a walk, whether it's just a mental. mental break from the distractions of a computer or client meetings. So I just really try to normalize that conversation. I have an open calendar to everybody at the organization and my team, and I have specific gym blocks that I have every day because I want them to see that it's okay, that this is where I take my time and my space to disconnect. And oftentimes some of my best ideas come from those moments. So it's really just leading by example. And it's easier said than done because I think there are some leaders out there that feel validated by the amount of hours they put in and the amount of how often they're showing up or always online. And I don't operate that way. I don't find comfort in that. I would never want a manager that is like that. And so I just try to embody what I gravitate towards naturally and the leaders that I've respected through my journey. So again, just being open and honest with them and hoping that they feel comfortable with the space that they can create around their own needs.
Jolie Shapiro07:12.817
that I love the setting that setting me precedent is it precedent I think the words precedent right yeah you can't read there we go I love that setting the precedent boundaries as a leader I think the person used to work with Chris Walker does that
Evan07:33.102
Yeah, he does that really well. He was all him and Megan both, right? We're fantastic leaders in terms of encouraging because some of the best work and I, I've holy, wholeheartedly believe this and I think we'll probably get into it. But space where you can think helps, especially in the agency world where you're working with multiple clients that have very different needs. Sometimes you can get so consumed by one idea that it doesn't open up the aperture for you to actually see more broadly into what other clients are potentially facing. So they both do really well. They both are very mindful about creating those no meeting Fridays or encouraging the time and space needed. And that just, we carry that forward as a culture, but that's innately, it's something that I've always wanted to do and, or excuse me, embody as a leader.
Jolie Shapiro08:22.363
Yeah, that's awesome. It's funny, I came up with an entire strategy for a client. This is about, it'll be a year at the agency, so probably about eight months ago. I was on a walk with my dog. We do this three mile walk every morning. And I'm like, this would be perfect. And it's just those aha moments when you're not at your computer.
Evan08:42.902
Yep. Yep. The best ideas come when you're not distracted, in my opinion.
Jolie Shapiro08:50.546
I'm about to ask you a question then I put myself on mute. Thank God for Descript. I say this every podcast because first of all, everyone's so patient with me. They're like, we understand that you're ADHD. And then I just put myself on mute because I was about to think you were talking. All right, going to start over. Let's see. Yeah, for sure. That's great.
Evan09:05.25
No, I'll get it. I'll get it.
Jolie Shapiro09:18.981
Great, so back to revenue. So, excuse me, back to revenue. Revenue roles demand resilience. How do you balance staying tough and also staying human?
Evan09:32.364
Yeah, I think it depends on how people would define resilience and, you know, the frame of their work. think a lot of, and I don't want to speak for anybody, but I've worked with folks that I can say this. Where their idea of resilience is about the grind and wanting to continue to grind through and really like kind of sustaining this idea of go, go, go until essentially it implodes on yourself and you're burnt out. And so I think that there's. recognizing at first what that means to you and how you define that as step one, I think. And then step two is what don't you want to embody as a leader or as a revenue manager? What are some of those moments where you're just kind of looking outwardly and you're going, I don't know that I kind of agree with this management style, this leadership style, the struggle. And here's why. Like if you hold yourself accountable to that and jot a few of those ideas down and kind of look back the last 30 days of moments, You'll start to see themes. And I think that's what helps you build that right muscle out is being intentional about what you're seeing or how you're interacting with certain folks. That's triggering something just a little bit that feels just awkward, whether you're going to say anything or not, but otherwise you don't know how to communicate it. And I think that that's best for me is like, if I don't have the data behind it to support it, and perhaps that's some of the marketing aspects of me, then I can't really find the right words to articulate that and confine like, not confront the situation, but confront my own personal wellbeing with it. So I think that that human recognition that we all go through some of these challenges is fine. It's just, have to flying off the handle at one moment for no reason doesn't really set a precedent precedent, but it makes sure that doing that once you start to reflect like, well, should I probably should understand what was the trigger deeper and how do I empathize with whatever the situation might've.
Jolie Shapiro11:27.183
Yeah, that's awesome. Off the record, I'm not gonna talk about this, but that actually literally just happened to me while I was, while I like right before I sat down. So that that made me feel so much better because my agency probably sometimes listens to this. So not gonna, I'm not gonna say that, but literally just happened. that got hit home, man. I was like, holy shit.
Evan11:33.13
Okay Okay. I feel that, yeah.
Jolie Shapiro11:57.222
Let me think of an answer that I can say. Let's see, see what you're talking about.
Evan12:07.864
you can tie it into like the human piece of it.
Jolie Shapiro12:09.745
Yeah, that's what I was gonna do. Yep, you're awesome. Yeah, you know exactly where to go. Yeah, I think humanity. A lot of us go through challenges like yourself with the loss of a parent or my mom with her stage four cancer. And there's different types of resilience to your point. But I think that if we can bring the humanity and understand that everyone is human and that we're going to make mistakes and I mean, for lack of better word, fuck up. But as long as we're receptive to feedback and we learn from it.
Evan12:47.81
Yep. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro12:52.954
I think that's really powerful in the workplace and personally too. But like personally, I've been through a lot of challenges and it's built up a ton of resilience that I bring to every aspect of my life. And like you said, compartmentalizing, like being able to, I think that that strength, being able to bring it and be there for the people that you care about the most or the coworkers where you need to. help them even though you're going through something is really powerful. So that's awesome.
Evan13:23.384
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think it's important. I'd be remiss if I didn't say that, you know, coming from whatever, whether you're managing a team, leading a team, you have a direct rapport or you're mentoring somebody. I think that checking in with an individual about how they are doing or how they are feeling like within the quarter or the project timeline is just as important as focusing on the revenue, the pipeline, the numbers, right? So it's that human to human touch that does matter and just kind of that recognition that you know, we all go through no matter the level, no matter the org, no matter the demand compensation, like there are struggles that take place. So sometimes just that open that dialogue, even if it feels weird, you don't want to build that like friendship with your coworkers. Cause I know some people set those boundaries, but you still as a leader, can check in like, how are you doing? Do you need space or time? And how can I support that? At least just enables them to feel supported in that moment. So.
Jolie Shapiro14:20.761
Yeah, definitely. My agency was so, so supportive about a month ago. My mom did a planned a trip in about 24 hours and we all went to Mexico because we didn't know if she was going to be okay. All we knew she had cancer. Sorry, what was that? What did you say? she's awesome. So I was like...
Evan14:36.046
Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love this spontaneity. I said I love the spontaneity though. I'm glad that you did it, yeah.
Jolie Shapiro14:48.53
Can I use my three wellness days for the holiday? Because we're about to go on a five day vacation. And they were just like, go spend time with your family, which was, which was amazing.
Evan14:56.558
Good. create the memories and that's awesome. And right. You people want to stay places that they feel respected and treated, whether it's an employer, whether it's with a team, whether it's with the leader. So I love that. And I'm, you know, it's, it's awesome. And then you can kind of take those spur of the moment decisions and still survive.
Jolie Shapiro15:17.957
Yeah, exactly. How is your company with your with your parents?
Evan15:22.76
great. it was, I made the choice. Leadership was very much welcoming, like take the time and you need. I operated very much in the mindset of you. Like busy was a good distraction. at the time. So I took nine days off and then came back in. and I'm not encouraging anybody to do this. This isn't a badge of honor that I wear. just was a mo I needed those distractions because I felt myself, I was kind of just going through the motions and I. didn't really want to talk about it with anybody, but I also didn't want to just kind of like be at home like alone. So it was, it was a choice I made, but my employer was very much like of the mindset, take any and all the time you need. so that that's great. And I think that had that been a different scenario or pressure would have been different. I think that I would have probably been really evaluating my next step or move, but, no, they were great.
Jolie Shapiro16:18.449
That's so good to hear. So this is probably more geared to our mental health, but you mentioned a lack of empathy of mental challenges and leadership. How do you think we fix that?
Evan16:32.012
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think this is such a common theme. I think it's because we don't, leaders don't necessarily model their behavior at the top of the chain because they are kind of oftentimes putting on the pipeline targets, the revenue targets, the board meetings, right? They kind of have this facade of like, we have to hit these goals and it's just, they're almost robotic at times. And that's such a challenge because It's not an approachable personality trait to have. You we've all worked for somebody where they're fantastic at their job and they're absolutely crushing it and kind of idolize how their growth, their career trajectory, but it doesn't feel like there's a bit of humanistic reality to them. Like how can I actually approach this individual and see like learn a little bit more about them? So I think if you can start at the top and normalize that stress is a normal thing within the business. When you pretend everything is fine, everybody can read through BS and I'm not a fan of that. I also think that it's acknowledging my own or the individual's personal struggles, right? Voicing those outwardly within the boundaries that you establish shows that you're a real individual. And that also creates empathy for others, right? They start, it becomes normalizing the conversation. You're able to kind of open the door to... Okay. Yeah. It is a stressful week across the organization because we, is QBR week and all of us are heads down grinding. Like sure. Maybe aren't we aren't in the best mood at the moment, but it's okay. Like that is fine. And that behavioral treat is fine. So I think we just need to kind of stop glorifying this burnout mentality and we'll push through and just really think about like, how do we normalize conversations that some weeks are just harder than others or reflecting? Yeah. Last week for me was really tough. You know, I got through this challenge. Nobody wants to be. preached at, but if you like kind of embody self-reflection and use that to position the compass in the right direction, I think that helps a lot.
Jolie Shapiro18:31.779
for sure. It's you. You gave me a thought. I feel we're so we're all about and it's like the LinkedIn echo chamber, right? Customer centricity. We have to be customer centric. We have to be like Amazon and Spotify and basically go from like B to B to B to C. Let's learn from B to C. And but we don't do that for ourselves.
Evan18:55.18
Nah, so true. So, so true.
Jolie Shapiro18:59.334
Yeah, it's crazy. So this is a bit of a, no, just let me redo this. Let's see, so, so true. So, okay, I got it. So one of the things you mentioned is time blocking. meant, damn, I gotta do this over home. Yeah, that's so true. So something else you mentioned, time blocking. You mentioned it's great for managing stress. What else helps you create a mental space for yourself?
Evan19:31.01
Yeah, it kind of goes back to, you know, finding what makes you tick and that create that moment of creativity where that sparks. So I had mentioned, you know, the gym and fitness for me is very much a standard in my life that allows me to decompress and unwind a bit. And I think that similarly, right. So I'm time blocking my calendar to allow me to have the time and space to go on a walk or go to the gym. to do that so I can create that creativity moment for myself. So I think you need to understand like what are these non-negotiable breaks that you are setting for yourself and those boundaries and have those hard boundaries where possible. It is challenging, right? know, firsthand in agency world, they're working with multiple clients. There are dynamics that come into play where schedules have to be a little bit more fluid. So if you know that, try to hold it at the top or the end of the day, but at least allow yourself before you just shut off and. going back to your normal life, that space where you can kind of decompress on the day or reflect on the day. think that those are some of those non-gosh bowls you need. I also think another area that I do is I turn off Slack. So I have Slack blocks on my calendar and those are where I close it entirely. And I allow that to be my deep work hour or two, 30 minutes, depending on I have this timer. It's just this digital timer that is one of the best hacks for my working style. So if I have 30, 40 minutes and I go into that deep think moment or deep work, turn this on. And that just kind of sitting there reminded me like, don't get distracted. You only have so much time. So I have different tools and everybody does, and I use them differently, but it all kind of surrounds themselves by that distraction free moments for me to kind of just have brain dumps, clear my brain, figure out where to focus and kind of pivot towards. So it's unusual, I'm sure. at times, and it looks probably very sporadic if somebody just see my calendar, but it does work for me. feel at this point.
Jolie Shapiro21:30.961
That's awesome. It reminds me of the Pomodoro technique.
Evan21:34.048
Mm-hmm.
Jolie Shapiro21:35.619
It's very similar, but you're doing it physically with your clock. That's awesome.
Evan21:37.966
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I saw that. I don't know where or who I would give them credit, but yeah, about a year and a half ago, I saw somebody had mentioned they use it to help them stay focused. And I was like, ah, for 14 bucks on Amazon here tomorrow, let's give it a shot. And I've replaced the batteries twice. So it gets used.
Jolie Shapiro21:59.366
That's awesome. Amazon is, I love Amazon. It's, think I'm an, I do have an addictive personality. I actually just posted that I was a three year sober. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, so I do have an addictive personality. So I feel like if I got into that, I'd just be obsessed.
Evan22:02.158
serious. Congrats. Yeah. And living in this, like I'm sure for Seattle and their corporate headquarters, yeah, this is a little bit of a tangent off subject, but, um, everything is so convenient, right? So I, most things that we order are here within four to five hours. Um, and that can be anything from a lamp to my office chair got here in the same day. It's just, it's, it's wild. The logistics behind it all. So, um, Sometimes if my deep think breaks are too distracted, that's where I get on there. And it's like, oh, well, this is easy. This will be here tomorrow. Yeah, of course I need 400 packs of gum, but I digress.
Jolie Shapiro22:55.218
Yeah, it's the error of convenience. It's crazy. And immediate gratification, which is probably why most of us have mental illness. Great. So thank you so much. This is a little bit of tough questions. Just to preface, this is a little bit of a tough question. So if you don't want to answer, just be like, no. So next question, just pivoting a little bit. What would you say if you could advise yourself after your mom's passing?
Evan22:57.806
totally. Yeah. Yeah. you know, everybody handles loss in their own way and there is no playbook for it. Despite us marketers wanting to have some sort of playbook for everything. Nobody can tell you how you're going to feel or what you're going to need. And so for me, it would take, it would be take more time for myself. so I did. I thought I was doing justice by stepping back in to be busy, to stay distracted. And I was, but as I look back, I don't know that I mourned or processed enough in the moment to allow me to move beyond that. So the struggle in my mind felt like it lasted a long little longer than it should. Again, there's no right or wrong answer to that. And I, it's probably not true, but that's how I reflect on it. So. Don't let anybody kind of rush the healing process. Don't see how somebody else is dealing with it and thinking that you need to mirror that. Everything's going to be there when you return the same client problems are going to pop up. Everyone's still talking about attribution. LinkedIn is still chasing algorithms like. owning up to you needing time and space are for me, like that's what I would reflect on. And that's one thing that I think I've grown a lot since that three years ago.
Jolie Shapiro24:44.07
Yeah, that's amazing to hear. That's great advice. I need to take that because right now, I mean, I have an attitude. I definitely have an attitude and I am burying myself in work and I'm kind of a hothead right now. So I might take that advice and maybe you take a wellness day this week.
Evan25:01.528
Mm-hmm. Yeah, try if you can. I encourage it on any spectrum, but. Sometimes it's just OK to go by yourself and just yell as loud as you can or be mad at whatever you can. Go to one of those shattering studios where you can just break everything in its path like you do you and screw everyone else. That's that's kind of my advice I would give.
Jolie Shapiro25:34.034
I love that idea. I might go to a break room. Love that. Thank you. That might be my wellness day tomorrow. I'll message you on LinkedIn. Like this was sweet. Great. So back to revenue. kind of, we might be bouncing around a little bit, but that's okay. So what's one thing about mental health and revenue leadership that no one talks about but should?
Evan25:40.45
I like it. Report back, wanna hear how goes. Yeah, well, especially around B2B and pipeline and revenue goals, right? So there's reality of what we actually can hit. There is stretch of what we really want to hit. And then there's a bunch of shit in the middle where the teams are stressing out. And I think that that's like that moment of a bunch of just like inconsistencies and that emotional toll that takes on the constant uncertainty. that needs to be talked about a little bit more, right? Like we can't, even as a leader, you absorb stress from every conversation. know, whether your team is working with a client that has a challenge on their paid search front, and then there's a conversation taking place about the board because you're 20 % short of your goal for the quarter. And then sales is on your back because pipeline is soft. Everything is coming at you in every direction and you're trying to learn how to compartmentalize it. And I don't think we talk about that enough that the weight that we carry as leaders and any individual, our goal is revenue and our goal is growth for the business. We recognize that on that, but the implications that come with that are so many more layers that we often ignore. And everybody just preaches it's about revenue, tie everything to revenue, tie everything to revenue. Well, I can't necessarily tie Timmy's paid search. program that got their credit card canceled because the business was running out of money to my pipeline target that forecasted that in there. And now they're at me. I'm trying to manage expectations, but I'm also recognizing there's a miss, right? So there's like things that are inherently out of your control that are tough for us to think about. And I think it's just like, we don't have space to kind of offload some of this frustration. Then I think we burn out. And revenue leaders do burn out because it's this constant rat race of I gotta catch up, I gotta do this, I gotta do this. you know, is it, is growth by chance? I don't know. Is growth lucky for some businesses? I don't know. Is growth truly driven by the marketing initiatives? Sure. I don't know. Like that's the challenging part when you step into different roles. It's like recognizing there's so many more inputs to the broader discussion taking place and trying to be. open and empathetic with the people around you, they're also dealing with similar struggles.
Jolie Shapiro28:21.871
I'm just like a total bobblehead with that. That's exactly why I started this.
Evan28:28.704
OK. All right.
Jolie Shapiro28:30.479
Yeah, so thank you. I might use you as a testimonial. That'll cut out. But no. But yeah, that's exactly why I started this. I wanted to give revenue leaders a space just to talk about not maybe their issues, but just what's going on. And I actually am currently building a platform for that very reason.
Evan28:59.704
Nice.
Jolie Shapiro29:00.466
Yeah, yeah, so that's, it's, it's gonna be called revenue mind. Yay, I'm building it on Circle. So it's gonna take some time. But yeah, no, thank you for saying that. That was like, wow, I'm gonna use that copy for my website. Yeah, I'll cut all this out. But oh, no, I got to script. Oh, no, no, no, I'm
Evan29:05.484
Awesome. Good for you. There you go. Happy to help. No, yeah, I trust you. You're going to edit well. Doing a lot of rambling, I'm sure.
Jolie Shapiro29:30.479
Like totally I'm retaking and bullshitting and like not sticking to the script. But I have a pretty good I'm a pretty thorough editor. So you'll have a great episode. Great. OK, so we left off. That's exactly OK. Cool. So I got it. So that's exactly why I started this. Thank you. Thank you so much for saying that. That you totally hit the nail on the head. Awesome. So. pivoting little bit, how has your definition of success changed over your career?
Evan30:05.262
oooo That's tough. I think that early success for me was rooted in numbers. So whether that meant growth, revenue, pipeline, salary, promotions, like everything was kind of rooted and tied back to a number. I felt like I was idolizing leadership or leaders that had calendars that were, you know, back to back meetings from. eight to five, I looked at this idea of the burnout culture being like that is a true leader that is grinding who knows their stuff. And that's changed. mean, as this kind of reflecting on some of the challenges that I've experienced in the last few years, but also just like throughout all of our lives, there's a different points of inflection that change and kind of curate kind of who we are now. But I'm really focused on building long term less about immediate instant gratification. And what excites me is a team that's motivated. I want to work for a business that has strong leadership that empathizes with their team, but also pushes and challenges us to do better and do more. I set a very, very high bar for my team. I'm a perfectionist at heart. And I think that that inherently won't change when I think about success in my career, but it's on the other side. Am I seeing my team continuing to grow? Am I seeing them excited about the challenges that they're facing? I think it's less me focused and more outwardly of like, how am I empowering and mentoring other folks in the marketing space to continue to elevate what excites them? That's a win for me. And that's what I want to look back and be like, holy shit, I did it. I can walk away from marketing or I can walk away from revenue leadership and say like, look at my team is continuing to crush it or they're on doing this. They started their own company. think. Burning out isn't the answer to winning. And that's what I've kind of reflected on going forward.
Jolie Shapiro32:10.373
That's awesome. It's like that movie. pay it forward. It's like that movie, Pay It Forward. That was a great movie. And that's exactly what you're doing. And I think that it's kind of like you want...
Evan32:18.935
No. That is a fantastic movie.
Jolie Shapiro32:30.905
You have to cut out the pauses here. So I'm it's kind of like you want something to run without you. That's kind of what what I ultimately want to do too is is is give back and and see future generations succeed because of what you did.
Evan32:40.002
Mm-hmm. Totally, yeah, there's reward in that, right? Money is important. Most of us are motivated at some point because we just have to survive and that's great, but there's something so gratifying and satisfying, excuse me, about seeing somebody you worked with that was eager to grow, maybe more junior in their career, continuing to elevate themselves is fucking awesome. It is such a rewarding. moment and oftentimes when you start operating in that space, more things come to you inherently. So you do continue to grow yourself. You do continue to find different growth levers. So it's kind of this full circle thing, but I think that it's a, it's been a journey.
Jolie Shapiro33:38.134
yeah, that corny saying, enjoy the journey. But it's so true. It's so true.
Evan33:40.95
Yeah. Yeah. You can't force it either. Right. So there you can't knock down walls and try to get anywhere, anywhere faster. I think that the maze is intentional for us to all kind of fumble our way through. And, know, there are doors that we got in. We think it's a victory only to open to the next one. And I think that that's just inherently the nature of us maturing in careers, growing in our own self and. It's important to reflect on that every time you hit milestones, whether it's at your business, if you hit a revenue goal, it's like, what did I have to do to get here? And kind of reflecting back on that as such a moment of personal growth too, and thinking about like, ah, I'm proud of that, or should I should probably evaluate that and do differently.
Jolie Shapiro34:23.345
Yeah, that's awesome. I absolutely love that. We have a couple more questions and we're gonna see where to find you. It'll be in the show notes and everything. Just pausing, you might have already answered this. So if you did, we'll move on to the, I'll redo that section and we'll move on to the last one. Cool. So what do revenue leaders need to change to better support their team's mental health?
Evan34:49.034
Yeah, I think that some of the early ones are that idea when I mentioned, you know, there are tangible goals and then there are stretch goals. And I think leaders really need to create space for realistic goals for their team members. Sometimes these unrealistic quotas can drive stress and not performance of the team member. So it's just like, yes, we all want that. And I'm not saying it's not important for the business, but I'm just saying as a leader, if you can kind of create that space where somebody doesn't feel defeated and they actually feel like it's obtainable. Those wins and those knocks off the belt are so much more powerful to build that engine and get it moving than to come in and say, have a 600 % increase on quota. You have to hit it. So I would just say that real realistic goals are. super, super important to me and something that I hope more people focus on. And then just kind of tied back to the beginning boundaries. It's all about encouraging boundaries and space and permission to take breaks. All of that supports kind of this idea that we all need that mental space to recharge and reset and whatever that looks like is nobody's, nobody needs to know, right? Like it's, can't think of the word, nobody's. What is that word? And you can take all this. Nobody's not responsibility. Nobody's business. God, that was too hard to get out.
Jolie Shapiro36:10.577
know what you're saying and I can't. no, it's, I can barely think, so you're fine. So you can start over. You can start that, that's it, clip over.
Evan36:26.338
Do me do the whole thing? Or just the, okay, no, no, no.
Jolie Shapiro36:27.637
I guess I can cut it out. I cut it out. It'll just say nobody's and then cut and then business. You can just say nobody's business. Okay, do that.
Evan36:36.046
Yeah. Or I can just say like, yeah, I'll just say the whole sentence again. Yeah. So it's a, yeah. Creating realistic goals is number one, um, to create that space for trust and understanding that they can achieve and make performance targets that are attainable. But also it all goes back to the beginning of this conversation about boundaries and encouraging boundaries in space, give permission for breaks. And it's nobody's business what you do with those breaks at all. So don't feel like you need to share, but also just know that your team needs those to continue to think creatively, continue to push for their goals, and continue to drive revenue for the business.
Jolie Shapiro37:12.721
That was killer. I'm happy you reached at that and didn't listen to me. I was like, damn. Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you so much. That's so, I think it's, can I have me a Thank you so much. I think that's going to be super enlightening for our listeners. think, I mean, that really hit home for me. Last question. For leaders feeling stuck in a produce at all cost mindset, what's your advice?
Evan37:20.62
Beacon off the cusp here. I think ask yourself at what costs, what is this costing you or your team? Is there burnout? Are we seeing inconsistent results? This whole mentality of grind harder, work more hours, show up more often isn't necessarily working. So recognize the cost and exposure of what that does to your team and longevity. want, you know, when attrition's high, Morale is low, that's not a high functioning team. So allow the space to pause and kind of reflect. Cause in my opinion, like sustainable success is far better than any sort of short-term win that you can gain.
Jolie Shapiro38:28.901
That's great. I know it's funny. Toward the end of every episode is when the title happens.
Evan38:34.958
Kind of puts a bullet bow on it for you.
Jolie Shapiro38:38.962
Like literally the person will say the exact title that like completely encapsulates or encompasses. I can't, I think it's word that completely like just summarizes the show, which is awesome. So you did to Chris, yeah, no, I loved it. No, it's a at what cost question mark. That's a good title. Yeah, it's a solid title.
Evan38:47.608
Both work. Perfect, there you go. Let's work for you.
Jolie Shapiro39:07.582
okay. Anyways, I know we have a couple minutes. So where can we find you?
Evan39:14.146
Yeah, so I am obnoxiously at times I feel like on LinkedIn. That's probably the easiest place to get a hold of me. So you can find me at Evan G Hughes. But yeah, feel free to DM me directly. I'm always looking to meet like-minded folks, but also folks that maybe think completely different than I do because that challenges me and everybody loves a good challenge. So yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. It's probably the best place.
Jolie Shapiro39:39.875
Awesome, thank you so much, Evan. Really, really appreciate it.
Evan39:42.508
Yeah, thank you for the conversation. think these are powerful and it's just a good reminder that we all have these moments where it's good to talk out loud and remind ourselves that everyone's human.