Jolie Shapiro00:01.358
Hey everyone, welcome to Revenue Mind. I'm Julie, your host, and with this is Delara. I fucked up. Hold on, let me try this again. Okay. Hey everyone, welcome to Revenue Mind, a podcast where revenue leaders talk all think, why can't I speak? Hold on. Okay. Jesus Christ.
Dilara Cossette00:19.184
I'm sorry. What a day.
Jolie Shapiro00:21.876
I would like the noise that you should see what's going on in this house. But we are going to get this done. am like, it's been like it's been six months in the making. So we're getting this done. Okay. Hey, everyone. Welcome to Grabbing Your Mind, a podcast where revenue leaders talk about all things mental health. I'm Julie, your host and with us is Delara. Welcome, Delara.
Dilara Cossette00:27.684
Woo woo!
Jolie Shapiro00:45.4
Thank you so much for being here, really appreciate it. So before we dive into these pretty intense questions, what makes you, you?
Dilara Cossette00:55.404
It's a great question. I believe empathy is very important and something that drives us and it doesn't relate only to professional but also like a personal performance and I would say like, you know, the way how people feel. If you're empathic and if you're supportive, it will bring you way long further and it can build and help you to build better relationship with your team members, with your family, with your friends. I think it's an amazing feeling to have. It's also one of our core values at FIP and it's one of my personal values. I try to be empathic and supportive and try to understand people's mindset, how they feel, what they want. And it really, at the end, it helps to build, you know, relationship, build on trust.
Jolie Shapiro01:44.834
Yeah, I love that. have a boss that I won't really get into what he did, but he truly embodied leading with empathy. And a lot of people can say it, but in what I've learned over the years is a lot of it's about actions. And the fact that you actually, you both embody it and you practice it is amazing. Yeah, yes, that's great. And I think you had another one, right?
Dilara Cossette02:12.45
Yeah, it was about vulnerability. think when you show vulnerability, it's very important and it builds the environment where you can come and openly share what bothers you or what you're struggling with. One of the best bosses I've been working with, they were all vulnerable and they were not afraid to share some personal stories, personal struggles. And it's automatically creates the environment when you can come and say, hey, I screwed up. Hey, I don't feel good. Hey, I just need time off. I don't feel. you know, motivated, engaged, you are open and honest with them. I think being vulnerable and being also empathic, it's very important. So the two core values that will just build amazing, amazing teams.
Jolie Shapiro02:59.106
That's awesome, yeah. It's interesting. I've been part of teams where you can't be vulnerable and it creates an incredibly toxic environment because everyone's so afraid to not be okay and then, and not perform and not hit their targets and be like these perfect little robots. And then I've been at other companies where it's okay not to be okay, as corny as that saying is, but it's okay to be human. And so I love those values. That's awesome.
Dilara Cossette03:32.592
Yeah, 100%. A few years ago, I joined the organization with a great culture and great people. I looked back at my career and I was like, what the hell was that? I realized that all my life I've been working in toxic and at companies with toxic culture when you know, people could make inappropriate jokes when they could raise their voice. Not necessarily with me, but generally I was like, observing that. And you know, when you join the meeting virtually or in person, like a chit chat at the beginning, I was like, hey, how are you doing? Okay, let's talking about job. And I was like, well, you asked me how I feel, but you didn't even let me say how I feel. Maybe I'm sad, maybe I'm frustrated, you know? But when I joined the organizations, we could talk for 30, 40 minutes, just chatting, just talking, laughing. You know, humor is very important as well, like building this trustable relationship. I'm telling you, that was like an eye-opener for me. I'm like, whoa, that's a reality. That's culture where people trust each other, they respect each other, they hear each other, you know?
Jolie Shapiro04:37.774
Definitely, I'm full of corny cliches today. The laughter is the best medicine. It really can diffuse a lot of situa- Oh, sorry, I was gonna say, it really can diffuse a lot of situations. Okay, ready for the questions? Let's do it. Okay, so first question. If your depression wrote you a performance review, what would it say about how you've handled stress and what would you write back?
Dilara Cossette04:44.164
Yeah, 100%. Well, okay, I think my depression would say you're too way too ambitious You push yourself harder than anyone else and you never stop you literally don't know how to stop and you're too hard on yourself and Honestly, I think that would be true 100 % I've always been ambitious and I always thought like it's great to have ambitious. It's great to push yourself, you know But the problem is like, I realized recently that I don't celebrate wins the way that I should. So I push, push myself. set super high expectations, not just for work, but also for myself and my personal life with kids, with husband, with friends. And for a long time, I thought it was really good thing. But the problem is like, when you're ambitious, you don't want to be good. You just want to be perfect. And perfect is not always great. I think you... Being great is also means that you know how to pose, when to pose, how to reset, and just celebrate your wins. You know, just pose and say, hey, great job, and then move forward instead of just pushing, pushing all the time.
Jolie Shapiro06:13.826
That is amazing. And I can completely relate. was like bobbing my head. I bob my head a lot in these podcasts. Yeah, I am a total perfectionist and I can completely relate to what you're saying. tend, I feel like a lot of us that have, that I've either had, it does have mental illness, but just challenges. We tend to, it's never enough because we don't feel good about ourselves. We don't feel complete. We don't feel whole. I mean, I'm speaking, you know, I'm speaking from experience, but also just a lot of friends that have certain challenges. We don't feel whole and we we're always reaching for the next thing because we don't feel good enough. And I love your comment about celebrating small wins because like, for example, like I never looked back and it was like, damn, that was hard. I crushed that. And you know, and I feel, and like for my, what I have, I have a mood disorder. I will, I'll always look at something from a negative, like a negative stance. And Sarah, I what you said. I'd probably write the same thing.
Dilara Cossette07:26.054
Yeah, it's called performance anxiety. It can kill you and eat you inside. My daughter has one and I see a lot of similarities. Like even if you did great, you will look back. You could pause, but you could say like, I could have done better. You know, and you will find the things that you could have done better, but you will never actually tell yourself, great job. You know, and I think the only thing that's, I recently heard that and I agree with that. I mean, the only thing that you could compare yourself is to yourself yesterday, not to other people. I think like it's also related to performance anxiety. You did great. Yesterday, perfect, you will do better tomorrow, but just pose and say great job. And I don't think I do that enough. And I think like it's being too harsh on yourself.
Jolie Shapiro08:13.324
Yeah, totally. it's it's that all or nothing mentality. It's like, I'll do everything or nothing. Which is like very classic with with neurodivergency. Yeah, I think the incremental that whole again with it. I'm so cliched today. The incremental improvement like that 1 % like if you're if you're feeling that down, or when I'm feeling that down, like if I can if you can just make your bed that day, like that's a win.
Dilara Cossette08:21.669
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro08:41.804
You can make your bed or, know, well, obviously if you have children or puppies or cats, you know, take care of them. Like if you, just for yourself, like if I can take a shower, if I can brush my teeth, if I can make my bed, that is a fricking win. Because sometimes it is that hard. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully this isn't going to make us both cry. no. Okay.
Dilara Cossette08:55.936
Yeah. Yeah. I hope so. Yeah. But I mean, off record, I know my husband was in depression for many, years before meeting me. And he was telling me like there were days in a row that he couldn't wake up and he couldn't get up, but he had son at that point, five years old. So he was bringing him in his bed. And every time he was sharing that with me, I was almost crying because if you were never in depression, you would never understand.
Jolie Shapiro09:11.746
Go ahead.
Dilara Cossette09:30.384
And you would be skeptical. I was like, aw, people just like you made it up to me's job. But when you have depression, you totally understand when people feel down. And yeah, but it's off record, obviously. I just wanted to share that I know and I understand what he mean because he couldn't even get up. And his son was sitting on the bed with him, just like drawing and doing some stuff. But literally, it's heartbreaking, really. So I totally understand and I can relate.
Jolie Shapiro10:01.4
Yeah, so I won't, so cut that out. Have you edited or cut that out? Sure, okay. Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate that. Okay, well thank you so much for being so open and sharing. I'm not gonna put that part, but.
Dilara Cossette10:04.1
Yeah, well, we'll cut that out. Just wanted to, you know, add that I understand what you mean.
Jolie Shapiro10:20.046
Bring it more to the revenue side so we don't start tearing up trying to mix and match these questions. So fractional leadership means balancing multiple clients, shifting priorities, improving value quickly. What's the hardest mental health challenge associated with this?
Dilara Cossette10:26.992
Thank you would say there are pros and cons, well, obviously everywhere. But when you compare working full-time versus being fractional, when I have a full-time job, yes, you get your paycheck every two weeks. You have health insurance, you have a structure, you have a flow. You literally know what your day will look like, at least today or tomorrow. But when you're fractional, every day is different. And I think the most challenging part, especially when you don't have thousands of network opportunities or connections, is to get those leads and close new clients. So basically in addition to supporting your clients, one, two, three, you know, it depends. You also have to promote your own services or your company. But when you're full time also on another, on the flip side, you know, you can wake up, see a meeting scheduled with HR and your line manager and suddenly you're let go. So basically you lose your income in one day. It's gone. Boom. When you're fractional, the good thing is like, you can't, I mean, the chances are very low that you will lose all your clients in one day. And even if they give you an artist, it depends, they can give you a 15, 30, 45, wherever it is, they notice. So it will give you some time to adjust and also find and replace them, maybe even bring more clients. So I think that's challenging and at some point that you need to constantly look for new clients. Especially with the first year, think like the most challenging, that's where people give up and they say, it's not for me. I want to go and just like find full-time job, but nothing is perfect. I think finding the right balance because for me it's 50-50. I would still would like to support fractional clients. I would like to support my team, promote the company, increase brand awareness. That's where it's a lot of investment and a lot of time that you need to put into that. And I still want to keep 50 % of doing the actual work because sometimes when I do too much of admin stuff, client, of like more team management, I feel like I miss working, actually working. I think for me balance is 50-50. But yeah, when you constantly think about revenue, about your income, when you're struggling with cash flow, that could be very challenging and very, very stressful.
Jolie Shapiro13:01.294
That's really interesting and it, I'm laughing because that has happened to me, that has happened to me probably three times in a row with full time. And I'm actually considering, I'm considering, so I'm kind of doing like a in the middle approach. So I'm taking on full time projects, like 40 hours a week full time, but for a certain amount of months. So that, For me that works because I like the structure, but it's interesting. the pressure for me is it's easier. The pressure is, the better pressure for me is eating or what is it? Killing what I eat, eating what I kill, eat what you kill. Yeah, the eat what you kill mentality versus always worrying if you're gonna, if that.
Dilara Cossette13:32.634
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Jolie Shapiro13:53.314
Like you said, like that meeting is gonna pop up between you, HR and your boss. Like I can handle the eat what I kill versus the anxiety that I'm gonna lose my job every day. I just, I can't do it anymore. I'm done.
Dilara Cossette14:05.638
Yeah, it never happened to me, but it happened to people I used to work. mean, you have a meeting and they're just announcing that people you work with every day, they're gone. And you know what is interesting? I think I posted an article two weeks ago, I was interviewing someone and she shared actually how she was let go and give like really good suggestions what leadership and even team members should do, anything we should be doing better job at that because we feel sad. I think like it's also we feel pitiness and we don't want to reach out to people, we don't know what to say. And that's how we end up not reaching out to people you used to work for years because you don't know what to say. And just imagine what that person feels. he just lost everything. it's very stressful. It's heartbreaking, I would say, right? You give so much, 40 hours per week, you spent eight hours minimum every day with those people, and you just lose everything in one day in that 15 minutes call. And just imagine if no one is reaching out, how you feel, even worse. Right? So I think we should be all doing better jobs, should be more supportive if that happens. doesn't matter to us or to our colleagues. If we are the one letting people go, we have to do a better job and we have to do better job in announcing that. I think we have to have a clear step-by-step guide at some point. I think leadership should say, and I'm more thinking about like live managers when this is like, hey, listen, it's okay to reach out. This is their phone number. This is their personal email. This is their LinkedIn. Cause sometimes we're not connected on LinkedIn with everyone who work with everyday, but giving at least like contact details. No one did that. no one in my career. And I think this is something should be done and should be distributed right after among the smaller teams.
Jolie Shapiro15:56.482
I think you should make it. Just a suggestion.
Dilara Cossette16:01.424
create a guide and then sell it.
Jolie Shapiro16:04.59
No, honestly, that's a brilliant idea. was like, people, yeah. I mean, having like, it's almost like an exit, like an exit guide. Instead of an exit interview, you have an exit guide of like this, these are the steps you need to take. Because so many, honestly, I've had so many bosses who are like, yeah, I'll help you. Nothing. They don't connect with people. They don't pass on my resume. You need, you need like, here are the people that actually give a, you know, give a, no, I mean, here are the people that actually give a shit.
Dilara Cossette16:23.312
given.
Jolie Shapiro16:34.584
Here are their numbers, here are their contacts, here are resources, whatever. I mean, I don't wanna steal your thunder, you can make it, but. I love the idea.
Dilara Cossette16:36.014
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we'll see. At least there is inspiration for another LinkedIn post. I just got inspiration, you see. But yeah, I think everyone talks, oh, it's not a performance thing. It's not a performance thing. Then what? Even if it's a performance thing, we're still human, right? I mean, we still need to reach out to those people and say, hey, I'm sorry. Can I help you with something? Can I connect you with people? Because it's a terrible thing.
Jolie Shapiro16:52.956
yeah, you could. Yeah, they're at bigger, and you mentioned smaller companies, at bigger companies they do have things like that in place. But I think for especially in the startup worlds, it doesn't exist. And yeah, so that's awesome. I'm happy we came up with an idea right on the, feel like, I think we came up with an idea on LinkedIn too. We're like, I don't want to what it is, cause it's stealth, but we had like a message, like, ooh, that should be something.
Dilara Cossette17:28.058
Yeah. Yeah, we had a few. All right. We'll see. Yeah, we'll see how many we'll have by the end of this podcast.
Jolie Shapiro17:45.838
Yeah, I we've had a couple. like, yeah, that's an idea. That's an idea. I know we're going to, I want to give our secrets away. So maybe I'll cut it out. Let's, let's move on to the next question. So when you work across multiple teams, how do you recognize stress signals in yourself before they become manageable?
Dilara Cossette17:56.428
Yeah. I know it might sound strange, but when I'm really stressed, I don't feel anxiety or being tired right away. I feel drop in my motivation so I can wake up in the morning and I can barely get up. Let's start with that. I can get up. I don't want to work. I don't feel like motivated. And then only after that, I started being tired and anxious and just like, you know, stress, but everything starts with this, know, being demotivated. And for me, it's a first sign. And I know that I need to take a vacation. And it's very personal. It's case by case. For me, it's every six months minimum. I know that when I'm reaching, and I'm not talking about like PTOs, when you're working five, six months straight, that's where I feel tired. I feel exhausted. I need to disconnect. I need to recharge. There was once when I actually worked one year without any... know, vacations without any time off and I couldn't even relax. So we took two weeks vacation wasn't enough. So I came back as tired as I was when I left. So that's something for me. It was important to set up some boundaries and some kind of like rules that I do take a vacation every five, six months.
Jolie Shapiro19:32.002
That's so funny, it's actually exactly what I do. So my partner and I, we do a road trip first part of the year and then we do, or vice versa, an international trip the second part. But what's interesting is what started happening is we just work, like work, work, work, hustle, hustle up until the vacation. I feel like this is very American. Like you just bust your butt, hope, like waiting for your next vacation instead of enjoying life in between. So I just, I told him, said, we need, we need to create some fun in our day to day, because I can't, we can't be so exhausted to the point where we're not.
Dilara Cossette19:56.616
Good morning.
Jolie Shapiro20:15.21
exploring the city or I live in Colorado so hiking, snowboarding, know even reading a book, walking your dogs. Like we can't be that tired all the time to not enjoy life before vacation.
Dilara Cossette20:20.112
You just nailed it. You can't leave from literally what we do. You're so right. We leave from vacation to vacation. And you know, they call it like vacation blues, I think, when you come back and you feel like, I don't want to do anything. I want to go back. My friend, told me that what helps her, she books vacation being on vacation. So she's on vacation. And literally she's booking the next trip, not necessarily to the same place, but like planning it so it helps her. And it's a little bit sad to be honest. So it means that we leave from vacation to vacation to get to that point. And we had a conversation with my husband literally a few days ago. I told him, we need to find a hobby. I'm actually trying to find a hobby for years. I don't know, maybe when you have kids, you don't have a hobby, you don't have time to have a hobby, but it's so important because it could be your hobby that you will go for hiking. You can go for... snowboarding, you name it, right? You can go dancing, can do something that will give you pleasure, or you can make small road trips like two, three days. It's more than enough to recharge. You don't have to wait for this like 10 days or two weeks vacation because when you're too exhausted, believe me, it won't help. It won't really help.
Jolie Shapiro21:35.34
Yeah, I think it's a great point. my I love it. I found out that my aunt and uncle do dance classes together. First of all, I think it's adorable. And second of all, it's a great bonding experience. So you can do there's so many different things you can do as a couple. Like, for example, I started putting putting activities like day dates. So I put like Denver Art Museum from 12 to two and then like walk the puppies. And then like you just you literally
Dilara Cossette22:01.325
in
Jolie Shapiro22:05.294
time block your funds so you actually you're like okay is this on my calendar because i live on my calendar so i'm like okay so my calendar i'm gonna have fun i'm gonna schedule fun for us which is really sad if you think about it but it's really sad you know it's really like but we have to be i have like i have adh tendencies so like i'll get stuck in one thing for six hours so if i don't have it my calendar
Dilara Cossette22:17.539
I'm the same. in.
Jolie Shapiro22:30.094
It won't happen. I started, you know what, whatever works. If we need to schedule fun, fine. But what kind of hobbies are you thinking about doing?
Dilara Cossette22:39.984
I actually purchased the paddleboard yesterday literally. So it's been something I was renting it like from time to time and I'm like, should I buy it? You know what, there's a commitment when you have it, you kind of like, you know, I paid for it like, you know, 400 bucks and I need to go. And I think it's been almost two years that I was thinking and considering I finally bought it yesterday. I'm very excited about that. Now it's kind of like, you know, at least it's going to be my hobby. I hope so for summer. And I know that from May till most probably September, I know that I can go and explore different, we live in the area, there are tons of like small lakes and we live next to the river also. So I know like there's gonna be like, you know, another way for me to go out, get out with cats, with family, with husband, and we can definitely do some fun activities. And I think like it's about commitment, right? You commit to buying something instead of renting sometimes, like, not every single lake, for example, or area they have renting. you know, the, the water sports, um, equipment. And when you have it, you can order that put in backpack and that's it. Right. So I think that's going to be something. And I also enrolled for the hip hop classes starting in June. Uh, it's been also a while that I wanted to do that. I, I love it. I did a lot of different types of dances in my childhood. And I think I still wanted, I know like I'm, I'm 40 this year and I'm like, is it crazy to do hip hop? when you're 40, but I thought, you know, if it's not this year, if it's not now, then when? Then when? So yeah, having a hobby, think like it's important and you know, it can be learning a new language. It can be just like going to some, you know, some gathering or just like figure it out the way what gives you pleasure. Sometimes people try to do that within the family, which is great. But if you can find some common activities, it's not, it doesn't mean that you can't do it alone with someone else.
Jolie Shapiro24:37.036
Yeah, yeah, you definitely don't need to always include a friend or a partner. Like for example, well, a couple of thoughts. So I love that you pick something that's easily accessible because a lot of times our brain is like, ooh, it's too far. I don't want to do it. It's something that you paid for. I do the same thing. So I do spin classes every morning and I pay monthly. Plus they charge if you miss a class. So it's, I gotta go, but I go by myself. don't really, I mean, yeah, I'll have like small talk with the people in there, but they're not my friends. I'm there for the endorphins and the, you know, the mood boost and the physical mental stimulation and mood regulation. So.
Dilara Cossette25:23.57
Exactly.
Jolie Shapiro25:31.884
Yeah, love, hip hop's so fun. I love that you're doing hip hop and paddle boarding. That's awesome.
Dilara Cossette25:35.184
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, and it might take some time to find what you like. You might try different things and it won't work, but it doesn't mean you have to stop. I think it's important to have a hobby.
Jolie Shapiro25:50.562
Yeah, the importance of hobbies, we just, like, there's this phrase, I think it's, I don't know if it's a military phrase, but a lot of people say it embraces suck. But it's like, how about...
Dilara Cossette26:00.133
Good.
Jolie Shapiro26:02.926
embrace life like embrace yeah life is hard but it's also beautiful and there's so many things in this world that we can that we can do and everyone's different like i love spin hiking and you know i'm very i'm very outdoorsy um someone else might like uh you know sitting and reading like i'm not a big snowboarder i told my fiance i'm like i don't
Dilara Cossette26:06.892
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro26:24.878
really liked a snowboard anymore. He's like, would you want to sit? Do you want to sit by a fire and read a book with our puppies? I said honestly, yes. So, you know, everyone just it's finding your happy place.
Dilara Cossette26:41.442
Yeah, and it could change. You might like snowboarding like one year, two years, and then you don't want. My husband used to ski. He doesn't ski anymore. I mean, it's normal. And I think it's important not to feel sad about that, not feel like demotivated that, used to like something and I don't like or enjoy it now. It's nothing wrong with you. It's normal because life is changing and your habits are changing as well. You have to keep going and finding something that gives you real pleasure. You don't have to force yourself. know a lot of people, keep on going and doing the things because they used to do and it used to be their hobby, but they don't get pleasure. So it's becoming actually frustrating for them to use that ex-hobby. So yeah, it's all, I think it's going back to listening to your body and to yourself, what your body wants, which signals it's sending you, right? How do you feel while in, you know, if you're preparing or doing something in the process of how do you feel about that?
Jolie Shapiro27:38.626
Yeah, I really like that. It's, what is it? The body keeps a score. keep meaning to read that and I haven't yet, but I think that there's a lot of research on the mind-body connection. Like for example, I go to spin. I don't want to go to spin, but after I feel like cloud nine. some things you don't want to do. Do you hear that? Do you hear anything?
Dilara Cossette28:05.786
Just a bit, just a bit, yeah. There was a big truck passing. Did you hear that as well when it was passing when I was talking before?
Jolie Shapiro28:14.294
I think my editor can get most of this out. Hold on a second, let's see what that is. I gotta move again.
Dilara Cossette28:44.336
Okay. And I have a call at 11. So I'm letting you know that we'll have a little schedule because I don't think
Jolie Shapiro28:51.956
my knees. I was sitting on the floor.
Dilara Cossette28:57.222
you were on the floor. Hold on. I'm setting a message, a quick message. So when I'm meeting, I'm supposed to meet at 11. I'm asking to push it. Yeah, because...
Jolie Shapiro29:06.102
Okay. Thank you so much. really appreciate that. Oh my knees. I'm just beating myself up today. Okay. Yeah. I'll let you do that and then we'll continue. My editor is gonna hear this and be like, in the world is wrong with this girl? Okay, cool. Where did we leave off? We left off...
Dilara Cossette29:23.024
Okay, all good. if your buddy had a slack status.
Jolie Shapiro29:32.108
Okay, cool. So I'll figure out something that I'll just cut myself off. Awesome. So next question. Your body had a slack status update for when you're overworked, what would it say and how would you ensure you don't ignore it?
Dilara Cossette29:48.496
Oh, I like it. It's like definitely all inclusive. I think my slack status would be just like flashing with a palm tree emoji and all inclusive. I'm a huge fan of all inclusive. And this is where actually, you know, recharge and reconnect. That's a real type of vacation for me. And when I went last time with my husband, he was so sad. He was probably was the sad, the only sad person on the entire resort. It's not for everyone, you know, he was bored. you like sightseeing, you like different activities. So we try to balance once it's a more do nothing type of all-inclusive resort. And usually second trip in a year, it's something like more sightseeing, just like traveling to different countries. Mainly it's like any European countries that we can visit and explore cities and different type of things. I think, yeah, that's the real reset for me. It's all-inclusive and that's literally what. buddy of slack message would be saying with a palm tree.
Jolie Shapiro30:52.75
That's really funny. I'm trying to think what mine would be. Probably... You know that nerd face with the glasses? Probably that because I love learning. I absolutely love learning. So, I'm constantly... If I don't know it, I study it. Probably to a detriment because I probably should be having some more fun. But probably the nerd emoji.
Dilara Cossette31:02.234
See ya. But it could be if you're getting pleasure if you're resting, right, and recharging by learning something, could be reading a book, attending a course, even sightseeing is part of learning. So you have to find your learning and what makes you happy.
Jolie Shapiro31:33.964
That's a great point. I think that if you're like for you, like when you travel, it's when you do the tours and the food and you're learning about culture. So it's a there's all different sorts of learning. I just tend to take and I tend to read a lot of marketing books. So at one point I was like, OK, I'm going to stop. had been four years. Now I'm going to switch to fiction. Like I am done. I will I will listen. I will listen to podcasts now on marketing. I need to.
Dilara Cossette31:55.14
Mmm.
Jolie Shapiro32:02.264
put away the books, I've learned a theoretical, now I'm gonna switch to fiction and just start doing. Yeah, that's, love your, I love your palm tree. That's awesome.
Dilara Cossette32:08.122
Yeah. Yeah, a fun story. When I went to see my family doctor and I told him like I have some difficulties falling asleep, he recommended me reading books. So I went to see him two months after and he told me how it's going. I'm like, my brain spins. I mean, like this hamster is just killing me. He was like, which type of books are you reading before going to bed? I'm like business books. He was like, when I told you to read books, I didn't read business books. For sure your brain keeps spinning. I told you to... read some romance or like something like, you know, very easy reading. And I'm like, you are not, you have to be specific, type of books you want me to read. So yeah.
Jolie Shapiro32:51.778
Yeah, if you read, I know the ones that put you to sleep are something that you're not into, like something that, yeah, like the opposite of a business book, because you're very interested in that.
Dilara Cossette33:00.014
Boring. yeah, for sure. Yeah, exactly. My brain was spinning and there was like ideas after ideas. I started writing notes and my husband was like, I don't think it's the right strategy to fall asleep.
Jolie Shapiro33:14.254
You're activating your brain versus making yourself bored. But hey, I'm right there with you. All right, cool. this is back to mental health. So people really talk about grief in business. How is experiencing personal loss shaped your connection with teams and clients?
Dilara Cossette33:17.146
Yeah. This this. Oh, that's a tough one, really tough. And we chatted about that before and that's the reason I wanted to share my story. It might help someone. So about a year and a half ago, my daughter and I, she was 11 at that time, we traveled back to our home country, Azerbaijan. We spent six weeks there. And the main reason I wanted to do that because she left when she was not even three. We moved to Canada in 2015 and she went back when she was five, but she didn't really remember anything. So I wanted her to connect with your roots, to meet my friends, to understand me a little bit better. But the real reason we went there for six weeks, not just like two weeks vacation, and I was working remotely. Because I wanted her to spend time with her biological dad that she didn't see for years. And everything was perfect. They spent amazing time together. They did so much fun. I was working, so basically they were spending all days together. And then three days before, we were supposed to fly back. He passed away like suddenly in the morning. She just didn't wake up. To say that I was shocked, to say nothing, I don't know even how to describe it. I was completely alone there. My husband was here in Canada and I needed support, but I also needed to support her as well. The first day she was home and he was supposed to pick her up. So I went to support his mom and she was in complete shock. And she still is, honestly, even when I talk to her, she still can't really realize what happened. So when I came back home, Emilia, my daughter, she asked me why my dad didn't pick me up. And this is where cultural differences came in. Everyone back in Azerbaijan, were telling me, she's young. You should go back and just tell her in Canada. But I knew that she would never forgive me. So I had to tell her. And that was one of the toughest conversations in my life. I mean, she had a panic attack, she cried, she broke down, it was awful. But she told me that I want to go to funerals and I don't, I even still think it wasn't a good idea, but I think after I realized for her it was a closure, you know, some kind of like a logical closure. So we went and two hours after we flew back. So we flew back home and you know what I did the next day? I went back to work straight. I didn't tell anyone, I was in deep, deep, damn grief. And I was hoping in a call with the camera, smiling, talking, then turning it off, wiping my tears, going back on camera and keep on working, working. And I couldn't really talk to anyone about that. A few times even I had to pull over my car because I couldn't see the road. I was crying and I couldn't stop. And this is where I realized I need help. Obviously I needed to... to be supportive to her, needed to support her, but I needed help myself. I needed someone to support me. So I ended up seeing a therapist and I'm very thankful that I did that. It took me a few months to go through that deep feeling of guilt that I had and it was eating me inside, the guilt that I divorced him, that I moved our daughter to Canada, that they didn't see each other, the guilt that maybe it was my fault. I don't know, there was so much guilt deep inside me. And yeah, it's going back to work, pretending like nothing happened, putting a smile, turning on my camera. I think that was a mistake. That was a huge mistake. Obviously I don't wish it to anyone, but if that happens to someone, just tell people, talk about that. Just take a few days. And I'm not talking about one or two days, there's policies, company policies are giving us. Take as much time as you need. Talk to people, see a therapist. I know that it took me so long to persist, to process my grief because, you know, on top of that, I was pushing myself hard to work and working and not telling anyone, keeping everything inside me. That made it worse. And it took longer than it should have taken. Maybe if I told people at work, if I took some time off, see a therapist, saw a therapist right away. So yeah, it was, it's really tough. And I think sharing with people you work with as well as with your friends. as well as with your family, it's very important.
Jolie Shapiro38:08.174
I agree and I think the thing that struck me the most there is that you're a mother but you're also a human being. So you're dealing with your own grief but you're also, you also are, you you feel responsible for your daughter. So I can't even imagine, well, actually I can't imagine but just from the daughter's perspective. So I'm so sorry, first of all and. was at see there I've spoken to other people where they've they've lost someone and they go right back to work and it is it is so it's just the worst thing I mean for some people it works I don't want to say it's the worst thing you can do for me it would be the worst thing I could do because we think we can compartmentalize grief but then you implode so I am so sorry and
Dilara Cossette38:40.591
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro39:05.666
But it sounds like you, you you really did, well, you really did write about your daughter.
Dilara Cossette39:10.923
Yeah, a few times she saw me crying and she was asking me why I'm crying. She knew the reason why I'm crying, but I was telling her I saw a movie, something got in my eye or something, but I was kind of like lying to her and she knew it. yeah, I think, yeah, it was tough. It was really tough.
Jolie Shapiro39:31.608
Yeah, yeah, those experiences definitely shape us for better or worse. Some of us come out of it stronger, which it sounds like you did, and others, let it, no, some of us let it break us. So hats off to you. Okay, we're gonna go to the next question.
Dilara Cossette39:55.216
Yeah, so we won't cry. like how we're mismatching, know, like mixing all these type of questions, so helping us not to cry. Okay. Let's talk about revenue.
Jolie Shapiro40:01.462
I'm like, my God, I want to make you cry. so sorry. Yes, I know. know. my God. I feel so bad. perfect. Great. No, no, but he's going to edit this. So like, we're not talking about you crying. you're going to be good. Great. So I know we hit a very hard topic. So want to.
Dilara Cossette40:10.798
Which also makes me cry. Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Yeah. Okay. Awesome.
Jolie Shapiro40:29.42
to more the revenue side. So revenue leaders often feel pressure to appear as the expert, which we dove into a little bit before. One has showing vulnerability as a fractional leader, maybe more respected, not less.
Dilara Cossette40:43.226
That's actually how I lead my team. We talk about vulnerability a little bit at the beginning. And I think this is very important. I don't pretend to have it all figured out. And I share what's not working and what's working with my team. For example, if I'm struggling with something, my sales pipeline is dry. I'll tell them, hey, listen, this is my goals for this quarter week. I mean, I'm here if you need me, but I need to focus on something else. Something what happened recently is about two months ago was like really sick and I got a terrible flu. It took me almost one month to fully recover. But at the same time, I just had brought someone on the team. So, you know, I had to be there, but I realized on the third week that I'm not really as supportive as I wanted to be. I'm not really too much online around because I was struggling with some of my, you know, like health issues as well. And I was vulnerable. So I shared it with the person like, hey, I'm so sorry. I wasn't much around. I tried to be as supportive, but apologies if I wasn't, and let's make sure that we set up some time to answer your questions. We did that every week, but it wasn't that I was completely offline, but I thought that it wasn't enough. It's the performance, anxiety. I was anxious because I felt that that wasn't enough. And the person was surprised because everything was great from her standpoint of you. But I still think that in my ideal world, in my ideal scenario, I would have been, should have been more around. And I think being vulnerable, sharing something that doesn't work or work, or just being, you know, there are a lot of people, can't say sorry. They literally can't, they can't apologize. And I feel like, you know, they want to apologize, but they can't. It's worse just, they don't come out of their mouth, but you have to apologize. You have to admit if you are wrong. I think this part of like being vulnerable and Honestly, this will, it's not a weakness. Being vulnerable, it's not a weakness. It's the core foundation of trustable relationships.
Jolie Shapiro42:52.226
Yeah, I'm like so on board with all that. I was like, yes, you go. Yeah, I've talked about this in podcasts before, but there was a time a couple years ago where I didn't ask for help. ended up making a huge mistake and getting, you know, canned because of that mistake. And if I maybe said upfront, hey, my dad's getting brain surgery. My uncle just died and I
Dilara Cossette43:11.536
you
Jolie Shapiro43:22.16
I need the team to step in. I probably would still have my job. it's all about, I completely agree with you. the best, not just leaders, it's okay to be strong, but it's not okay when it's a detriment to your team. So I think the best leaders are vulnerable and they know that we're not superhuman. You need to ask for help.
Dilara Cossette43:42.345
Yeah. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro43:49.984
If you're a marketing assistant or a CRO, like everyone is human.
Dilara Cossette43:56.583
It doesn't matter if you create this environment, if leaders are vulnerable, if they are sharing their challenges and concerns, it means that their team members will come and say, I'm struggling with something. I remember, just remember my grandma passed away in Azerbaijan. I was on the meeting and I was working that day and people on my team, there was like, Delara, do you want to take off? You shouldn't be here. And I'm like, I'm fine. What can I do? She's there. Now I think like that was crazy. I mean, that was so crazy. It was like four years ago and it's ridiculous to do that, what I did. And I didn't feel like, you I needed to take off. Like it took me some time to realize and process that. But I think like it has to be a rule. If something happens, you should take off. You should clear up your mind. You have to figure it out what's happening with you and how you feel. I think if we do that, yeah, exactly. It won't affect your job. It won't affect relationship with your team members. Obviously, it will directly affect positive that affect your engagement and performance. So yeah, but again, going back to this being vulnerable, if you don't have this relationship with your boss or your team members, you can't just share. If they're not open, if you don't know anything about them, you work for years, you don't know even how many kids they have. You know how many companies are out there? A lot. They work for years, they don't know nothing about each other. How you can come and say like, you know, something happened with me, I don't feel good. And I was like, okay, you want to take half day off and then come back because you need to do this, this and this. What about this deadline? Seriously? Okay.
Jolie Shapiro45:39.498
It's making me laugh because I had food pois- a couple examples. I had food poisoning once and the next day I got a text at six in the morning from my boss saying, where are you? She did have food poisoning. And then the next- the time where I had that series of events happen in a row over the course of like maybe a week or two, I asked my boss, I what are you doing for Valentine's Day? He said, it's just another day. I said, I'm not going to tell you anything. So like not, you don't, to your point, like you don't know, if you don't know if you can trust someone, you're not gonna open up about your vulnerabilities. I agree with you, I think it really comes from leadership because if they're not setting an example for their employees, no one's gonna ask for help. And it just, gets crazy in that department.
Dilara Cossette46:10.651
Yeah. Never, not even asking for help, just sharing what's happening, you know, with you. Because sometimes, asking help, it's hard. It's really hard to come and say like, hey, I need help or I'm struggling with something. But just like talking to someone even, right? You can't even share what's happening or what happened. Good or bad things, it doesn't matter. But it's, it's very sad because we work and spend so much time with our colleagues more than we spend with our families. You know, we see our colleagues more than we see our kids or husbands or spouse or parents. This is crazy and we don't have this relationship, trustable, open relationship, ridiculous.
Jolie Shapiro47:09.954
Yeah, but on the other hand, I feel like you've built that type of culture. What's nice is not every company is like that. There are a lot of companies with leaders like you that lead with empathy and that it's OK not to be OK. It's OK to be human. So I don't know if we're probably not a complete 180 in that direction, but I think we're starting to move in that direction, which is promising. So we talked about the mind-body connection and you've learned to listen to your body which is awesome. What's one physical or emotional cue that tells you it's time to reset before burnout?
Dilara Cossette47:56.808
Yeah, it's like being demotivated, you know, when I feel like I don't want to do anything and just like, you know, It's more about like, you know, being, wouldn't say physical, but mentally when you feel like, know, exhausted or demotivated. Physically, when I start getting headaches, I know that I need like eight, nine hours of sleep. When I sleep eight, nine hours, but wake up with headache, I'm exhausted. I know that for sure. When I'm setting up like constantly headaches and I start taking like Tylenol and Advil all the time, I realized that my body is sending me signals and I started learning those signals and hearing and kind of like. catching them up like on time because same thing as when you're exhausted and living on vacation without going on vacation for one year, won't help. The same thing if you're having headaches for six months and then you're taking one PTO. I was like, I still have headache. Why? You know, it won't help for sure. And if you go to the road trip, but driving 120 just because you have one day PTO, right? I mean, this is something you have to figure it out and listen to your buddy. And for me, it's kind of like a signal, it's time. If I ignore it, I know that it will get worse and poor sleep turns into the constant exhaustion. Like you feel tired all the time, it's leading to headaches, low energy, and then it's directly affecting your mental health.
Jolie Shapiro49:20.942
That's so interesting. So I woke up with a headache this morning. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm going to get one. My last day at my job is, or my full time job is a 28. So I'm going to take some me time.
Dilara Cossette49:24.91
Maybe you need a p-tail. Yeah. And one thing that's also very important talking about, but you know, some time off when you're working full time, what I did a few times, I just remember that I went straight from one work to another without any time in between. That was also the worst thing that could happen. Take minimum three, four days because you have to disconnect in order to be able to connect. you know, sometimes It's not about like, you know, sending laptop back to the company and that's your disconnect. It's not the moment when it's happening. It's when it's happening when you stop thinking about work. Usually it has to be three or four days minimum. I usually take one week off between jobs and yeah, it's really helpful. Even though you can always like adjust your, you know, that one week off to your fabulous vacation. So usually you end up being alone on that week, but actually it's even better. it's easier and faster and quicker to recharge and disconnect and connect again.
Jolie Shapiro50:35.138
Yeah, definitely that. Yeah, that's something that I've learned probably as of this Friday because I have I have ended a job on a Friday for the past 10 years and gone to the next jobs on a Monday. And you've to your point, you've no time for just getting your shit together. Like, like just get
Dilara Cossette50:46.884
and Yeah, 100%.
Jolie Shapiro50:56.302
or getting, or not to curse, but like, you know, getting your light together, getting yourself in order, just taking a moment to breathe. Like you just worked, like you said, like you just worked 40 hours a week for a straight year with that vacation. I think, think especially Americans, we think that we're not really allowed to take a break.
Dilara Cossette51:09.562
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro51:17.966
I think we start viewing that as a weakness. Not even beyond vacations, beyond vacations and the day dates and the hobbies. I think we don't think that we can stop. It's not okay to stop. I don't know if that's because we're afraid of our own thoughts, which is my case. But I don't know if we're okay not moving.
Dilara Cossette51:18.02
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. be also the judgment that people will think you're lazy, you're not working, you're not doing enough. Because you know that for a few couple of recent years, I'm in the HR tech, so I read a lot of like case studies and just like, you know, researches. You know that more and more companies are now implementing the unlimited vacations. And you know what is interesting? That with unlimited locations, won't believe people are taking less vacations because they don't want to be judged. So what companies started with great cultures again. And it's more about like a mid-size to larger organizations and enterprise level. What they started doing, actually send it every once that week. Like HubSpot does that. They have like one week off. The reason why people don't take, yeah, they call it, I don't remember how they call it, but they just offline completely the entire team and they force it. And I love that initiatives because the reason was the research why the reason why people don't take vacations because they are afraid of being. overwhelmed when they come back because you're on vacation, your team members are not, they're sending emails every day. So you don't take vacation because you're afraid of like being overwhelmed upon your return. So when you send everyone, it's, it's working. They started sending teams, let's say marketing team or like, you know, half of the team and it thinks working. But even with that, it's still underused. It's very interesting. It's going back to, know, like if you give it like to someone, to some companies based in Europe, they will overuse that for sure. I mean, they implemented that in North America because people don't take enough vacations and then they're going on C-Cliff, which costs more to companies.
Jolie Shapiro53:21.976
That is so interesting. Actually, someone was telling me that, I don't know if this is true, so please correct me because you're in HR, that companies were actually using reverse psychology because they knew that employees were going to take less time. But I don't know if that's true. This is kind of a rumor I heard in the corporate world. I think what great companies, and feel free to correct me obviously, but what great companies do is they actually give you a set time. The great cultures are like, have X amount of time, whether it's two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, and people use it. And I think that that's a better way to do it because unlimited PTO, I know I took less time.
Dilara Cossette54:09.966
Yeah, I think it depends on the company culture because I don't think the culture that cares about employees that will do it on purpose. Just like, know, to to implement this like reverse engineering, maybe small sized companies or mid-sized companies, but it's very rare when they have a limited vacation. Usually it's like, you know, more interplay travel because obviously, you know, in startup environment, everything has to be done quicker, faster, and you move just fast. I remember when I joined my first startup, like, you know, back seven, eight years ago. like, why it's so fast? I used to work all my life previously in corporations, like with thousands and thousands of employees. Everything was like processes and processes. In startup, you have an idea implemented, here's your budget. That's it in one minute, you know? And you have to be ready for that. The same with culture, you know? If some small-sized companies or startup would implement something that interest level are successful with, it might not work. just because of the size of the company and culture, because startups usually rarely pays attention to workplace culture.
Jolie Shapiro55:17.058
That's a really good point. because I've worked at agencies where we work with enterprise companies. I've also worked at a pretty large companies, public. And I think no matter how small or big you are, because I worked at a pretty large public company years ago and it was Sink or Swim. And there are also startups where it's Sink or Swim. and there are companies that are big or small, but they have the same culture. So just, it's so interesting, the dynamics. And I think it really, like we've talked about a recurring theme in this podcast, and what we've talked about is it all comes from leaders. Because you can have a great leader at a small company that implements that. that vulnerability in the league with them people like yourself and then you can have you can also have that at a large enterprise company. So I think it all I think it's all variable.
Dilara Cossette56:13.499
Yeah, it all depends. You're right.
Jolie Shapiro56:16.462
Yeah, definitely. I know we're running way over, so let me go to the next question. Great. So speaking of, what's one unspoken rule about revenue leadership that doesn't work for fractional leaders? And how do you approach it differently?
Dilara Cossette56:35.32
I think being fractional means you work a set number of hours for a client. Let's say it can be five hours per week, 10, 20, and you set it up yourself. But you have to remember one thing, you're not full-time. So if you support three clients at once and it can reach up to 40 hours, you should be always there, like keep in mind that that's the maximum number of hours you would have worked being full time. it's easily like, it happened to me, there were weeks I was working 50, 60 hours and I was so exhausted in a few weeks. So you have to still keep that balance and always refer to like, you know, how many hours would I have worked if I were, for example, you know, full time. I think the first big challenge is like you don't have the same level of access or control when you are full time leader or fractional because you don't have, you don't interact as much with key decision makers and also implementers of the company who are fractional, but there's like, know, content writer, for example, like it might be another external resources, it might be in-house and you don't manage them. You don't really even influence them, right? And they can question. your strategy, your implementation and your suggestions. That's frustrating and it will create kind of like conflict of interest. I think that's one thing. The second, the biggest issue is trust and credibility. No matter how much experience you have, no matter how solid your strategy is, there's always going to be someone in-house that will question you. So. Going back to your point, even though it's not someone who's going to implement your strategy, it can be like CRO, if you're a fractional CMO, it can be CFO. It can be even CEO, but you were hired by someone on the team. So you have to prove people that you are the best hire. And it's a little bit frustrating because when you're full time, you pass through several interviews and You know, it might be like some tests or something. So there's kind of like, it's on them, not on you. If they made a bad decision, if there is like no cultural or, you know, mutual feed. But if that person is, was questioning you all the time, it's involved in the execution. You're screwed. So for example, if someone from content team always questions you or someone from the PAs, when you're suggesting the strategy, if you're a more fractional CMO or fractional demand jan, it's hard because you keep on arguing and end up arguing all the time with the person. Obviously you can't just argue, but it's also going back to the culture. If the people, they don't, they're not respectful. They can raise voice. It's, it's, it's, it's really hard because you don't have control over that. Right. last but not least, going back to the culture, you can work with companies with terrible culture or also, you know, with people with great, you're lucky if they would have great culture, but if they have that culture, there's not much you can do. You can influence that. You just have to shut up and do your work. I remember once I joined the company as a fractional demand generation leader and there was a call with sales and marketing and they started arguing, almost yelling at each other. I had to turn off my camera because they couldn't make a poker face. I was just shocked. And I'm like, why? And I was like, well, I told you, this is not a strategy. And marketing was like, yeah, no, social media works. Where it works, we didn't close any deals. You didn't close because you can't talk. And I'm like, oh my God. And I was like, Delara, are you still here? I'm like, yes. I'm here. I was just shocked. So it's really hard when you have to work because it's draining your energy. Even if you work only five hours, it keeps placing your mindset and it's negative thoughts. So you're always stressed. So yeah, I I would be, I am very selective and I try to make my own research even before joining even fractional work because it will affect your mental health really in a very bad way. Jolie Shapiro (01:00:31.246) Yeah, agree with that. I feel like you can be a task rabbit anywhere you go. You can be full-time, you be fractional. My worst, probably my worst mental health state is when I am not doing strategy and execution and I'm just being barked at. That is... That is the absolute worst for me because that's not really how my brain works. My brain is more like, okay, let's the strategy and pilot and execute and iterate A-B tests, like all the fun marketing stuff and demand gen things. when it happened to me at a previous job where I got taken away from the strategy and someone else got put on it six months in and I left, I was done. I was like, I'm sorry, I'm not. Dilara Cossette (01:01:09.346) Mm-hmm. Dilara Cossette (01:01:14.864) Yeah. Jolie Shapiro (01:01:18.71) to be treated like this. It's not okay. And it wasn't even performance-ing. It was just the person was a control freak. Dilara Cossette (01:01:26.532) I agree with you 100%. That's also my preference to oversee the strategy and implementation because you're always constantly doing changes. Marketing is not black and white. You can put together the strategy and it will be an amazing strategy, but in fact, it won't work. And you have to go back and adjust that. If there two or more people working on that, it's a conflict of interest at the end of the day. Anyways. So it's always great if you're fractional too. And again, it depends on the title, obviously, right? Not every single fractional role is overseeing both, but my preference is also overseeing the strategy and execution as well. Even if I need to delegate the execution itself, but at least it's under the FIP and we can manage and figure it out things internally. Jolie Shapiro (01:02:16.366) Yeah, I love that. And being fractional, you're always available for multiple clients, that always on mentality, on call. What's a boundary that you've set that you initially uncomfortable, but it changed everything. Dilara Cossette (01:02:31.17) It hasn't really happened to me yet, but I know it could. And I've seen it happen. I remember when I was working as a fractional demand generation. So there was a call with the sales team. Marketing was actually forcing sales team to reply on the weekend. And they were kind of like blaming them like, Hey, the, the, the prospect replied, like, why didn't you get back to them? And the guy was like, well, I was. out of city, she was like, yeah, it's just like literally 10 minutes to get back to client. And I was shocked because to me, it's a first sign of toxic workplace culture. can't force employees work outside of working hours, even within nine to five, they can have some emergencies. No matter what they do and how they do, the job has to be done. And honestly, if they want to respond, will reply. But if you force them to do that, they will never do that. So being fractional, it's a very good example. you know, being fractional, people can force and push on you and they think like you're available all the time, but you also work literally Monday, Friday, but it's your choice to set up your boundaries and have as many clients if you want. Yes, there won't be like five clients and you onboard them at the same time. You will be working literally 80 hours, but you are controlling your boundaries and it's very... important to set those boundaries for yourself and also to announce them and share them with the client and your partners that you're supporting. So they will understand and they will know that if I'm not responding on Slack messages or if I do on the weekend, right? It's kind of like, you know, household rules. And I always share that even internally for us, we all work in different, you know, we are in the same time zone, but we work in different, you know, time allocations, I would say someone can reply at 2am. So I encourage everyone to turn off their notifications. And if you see a message at 2am, it doesn't mean that you have to wake up in front of your computer. But this is normal. And every company should have their own norms, right? So you have to discuss that. And I love the schedule feature. I have a lot of thoughts in the evening. So you know, if you can schedule a message, it should go the next the first thing in the next Dilara Cossette (01:04:47.716) They are money, you don't have to force and send them. So I think setting boundaries is important. Jolie Shapiro (01:04:54.062) Yeah, I with that. And I love what you said about level setting in the beginning. Like, hey, here are my, here's, I'm going to do this for you, but here are my, here are my expectations for myself. And you're not going to, if you, I mean, you don't want to be obnoxious about it, but you, you are realistic with what you're going to provide, but also setting those boundaries where they don't message you at two in the morning or call you in the middle of dinner or, you know, whatever that is. Like you said, you're working hours. that you're along with the length of engagement and then the working hours and of engagement. So last question before I bombard you where people can find you. If you could rewrite the playbook for how fractional leaders protect their mental health, what would be the first rule you create? Dilara Cossette (01:05:43.238) Yeah. Dilara Cossette (01:05:52.642) it's very linked to the previous question. I would say protect your time as a full-time employer would. It sounds cliche. I know, but I think a lot of people assume that being fractional means they have all your flexibility. You work 24 seven, right? But actually technically it's you who choose when and what to say and when to respond and when to work. I think that's a nice thing of being fractional, even though there are a lot of, you know, cons, but that's one of the. that being fractional allows you to work and set your boundaries and decide how many hours clients you can have, pretty much the same, and how many hours you could support them. The difference is like when you're full time, there's a natural start and end to your work day. Let's say nine to five, eight to four. And even if you work late sometimes, there's still a structure. You can start later the next day, you can take a few hours off then and here. You can adjust that, but having structure is very important. And you have to set up and create your own structure. Unfortunately, it's not one structure applicable to all your clients. So you have to have this separate playbooks for every single client. For me, let's say if I commit 10 hours per week, it doesn't mean they will have me like, you wherever they want. Yes, I can reply in the evening. I can't apply on the weekend. I can schedule the meetings. I can work even more than 10 hours, but at The problem is fractional. Even though there is an agreement for five, 10, 15 hours, they sue and want you to reply right away. There was one situation when there was a client and she was asking me that, hey, could you please just like review this? And I was on the call, on one hour call. So she sent me a message. Then she said, Delara, question mark, two questions, three question marks, all in slack message. I was like, Delara, are you here? And I'm like, hey, I'm sorry, I was on the call. Ignore it. I did it already. I'm like, I was on the call, one hour call, whatever was supposed to do. So it could happen, right? And I'm afraid that's not a like super rare exception. It could happen. And you should have it in your SLPs. I'm talking the internal. Internal, yes, we have that. When and what is the... Dilara Cossette (01:08:12.132) you know, delay when you can get back to a client if you don't have an update, what to say, what to do. But also with the client, I'm not saying like you have to include it in your contract, but what I usually do, there is an onboarding document during, we're going over that during the kickoff call. And I try to make sure we discuss that. So the way of communications, flat. So for example, like, know, the timeline, timeframe, when I will get back to them. So I think it's important to set out this, you know, expectations from. at the very beginning of your partnership. So yeah, I wouldn't say like fractional doesn't mean you're always on and you have to be, you have to set up your own boundaries and share them with clients because if you know them, doesn't mean that they know it. Jolie Shapiro (01:08:55.584) It's up. This is off the record. He'll, he'll cut this out, but everyone get, I've told influencers this before, like everyone will give me the title right at the end. You just gave me the title. It's like every, every single episode, all 16 episodes I've done so far, it's always like right at the end is like title. It's, it's so funny. Dilara Cossette (01:09:19.952) What do you mean, tightrope? Sorry. Jolie Shapiro (01:09:21.078) So the one that you said that I'm probably gonna use, you can approve it or not like it, but fractional doesn't mean you're always on. Yeah, yeah, it's always at the end. People give me the perfect title. So we'll go back to the recording and then I'll let you go. Dilara Cossette (01:09:25.857) Dilara Cossette (01:09:30.574) Yeah, I love it. Fraction doesn't mean you're always on. Yeah. Dilara Cossette (01:09:39.224) Awesome. Jolie Shapiro (01:09:40.206) Great, so this was awesome. Thank you so much. I really loved your candidness and really appreciated your vulnerability. And where can we find you? Dilara Cossette (01:09:51.472) I'm very active on LinkedIn. share the management tactics and the she-a-tops every day. So if you want to connect, chat, a call. I'm always available. And yeah, can reach out to me. The best way to reach out to me is LinkedIn. Jolie Shapiro (01:10:07.56) I will definitely be DMing you. We talk most days. well, this was great. Thank you so much, Jelara. This was awesome. Dilara Cossette (01:10:13.85) Yep. Dilara Cossette (01:10:17.156) Thanks to you. really appreciate you giving me a chance to share my story. I know it was a tough, you know, topics and discussions, but I really hope that it might help someone, you know, to speak up, to share their challenges and to take a step back and say, Hey, I'm not okay. And this is totally fine. I just need help. Jolie Shapiro (01:10:39.394) I think you helped a lot of people today. Dilara Cossette (01:10:41.786) Thank you.