Jolie Shapiro00:02.656
Welcome to Revenue Mind. let me start over. See, I'm already screwing up. Okay. This is why I have an editor. I tried to script and it like totally sucked. I don't know if you heard any of the podcast episodes, but they were like, my God. my God. So bad. Anyways, let me start over. Thank you. Okay. Hey everyone. Welcome to Revenue Mind, a podcast where revenue leaders talk all things mental health. I'm Julie, host and with us is Che. Welcome.
Che Ugwuala00:32.568
Hello everyone and jolee it's nice to meet you.
Jolie Shapiro00:36.628
Yeah, you too. Thank you so much for being on here. So this is a question I don't prep people for. You ready?
Che Ugwuala00:43.68
Okay guys go for it, what is it?
Jolie Shapiro00:46.294
Because I try not to get rehearsed answers and there have been some really cool answers. So first one, what makes you you?
Che Ugwuala00:53.761
Okay. wow, that's a good one. Well, I would say what I've been told by people is that I attract good energy and people feel in a way really comfortable around my energy. and that they feel a sense of calmness and that they feel like they can really show up in their most authentic self. And I've had that said to me a few times and so I've kind of latched on to that as like kind of like my personal brand of how I like to see myself and it's that reciprocal feedback that I'm also getting from the world too that that makes it feel real too.
Jolie Shapiro01:55.958
That's great. I don't know if I have the same problem, not problem. You have a great problem. My thing is, I think it's a gene from one side of my family, because it happens to my mom, my cousin. People, and I don't know if this happens to you, but I think there's some sort of, we're open and trustworthy, and maybe it's our faces, I don't know. But people tend to dump on me.
Che Ugwuala02:20.715
Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Jolie Shapiro02:24.021
I don't know if that happens to you, but maybe not dumb, but they'll tell their entire life story the first time meeting them. I don't know if that happens to you, but...
Che Ugwuala02:33.621
So I would say because people feel comfortable with me, I do get a lot of information from people just like right away. It's so funny, like we were at a birthday party last week and it was for our girls, one of their classmates and I hadn't really actually engaged with their parents at all before. So this was like the first time I was meeting them. And my wife also hadn't either. And so, you know, at the end of the birthday, you know, we were just exchanging notes with my wife and like the folks who were throwing the party, like they gave me this dump of like their whole life story, like how they met, like the, you know, how much they paid for their house, all these different things. And so my wife was like, wait, like you were only interacting with them for like five minutes. Like, how did you get all this information from them? I was like, I don't know. They just. they just gave it to me. And so I think that that's like my inherent superpower in a way. Like I don't mind it, so to speak. I think it actually sort of, I think it creates a sense of like calmness in the room, but I can also see on the other side how it can be a little bit overwhelming to like be the recipient of like all this information about someone.
Jolie Shapiro03:53.462
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm actually okay with it. My mom's a psychotherapist, so I got, I don't know, how do I put this? Yeah, my mom's a psychotherapist. I, I learned to be open throughout my life. So.
Che Ugwuala04:11.372
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro04:16.917
I'm trying to know how to say this. You gave me a thought now I can't remember. Oh yeah. So I love that people are open and they share. What's interesting is I tend to get the, have XYZ diagnoses. Or I have like the first time meeting them. Like I sat down with a girl on a friend date. BumbleBFF has like a friend component. And she started telling me about her active eating disorder, her OCD, her dating issues. Oh, it was like a therapy session. I've given therapy sessions to first time people that I meet. But it's completely fine because you know what, like people need help. And even though I'm not licensed, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a therapist, it's just good to...
Che Ugwuala04:54.971
well, she was going deep. Okay, gotcha.
Jolie Shapiro05:14.301
It's people, if they feel comfortable with you, I think it's good for them to be able to talk. And if you have that, I know if it's face or gene or whatever, but if you're able to give that kind of support without even knowing you're doing it, I think that's a blessing.
Che Ugwuala05:33.548
Yeah, I think so too. think I also, I believe in the power of vulnerability too. So I think that that is so important. And I think that that's something that's been lacking quite a bit. so whatever about my energy that feels disarming for someone where they feel like they can show up authentically and they can be vulnerable, I'm here for that because I know there's been times where I could have used that. with someone else and so I'm glad that people feel like they can be that way with me.
Jolie Shapiro06:06.185
Yeah, totally. I exactly, wish the whole reason I started this podcast is because I wanted to give back and I love or I wish I had this kind of resource or the resources that I'm starting to build when I was 22 and lost. So it's all good.
Che Ugwuala06:27.307
Yeah, yeah, no, I love that you're doing this and creating space for people to quite frankly like see themselves and other people as well. I think that's just so important. And I think it's work that I wanna continue doing too, which is why when you reached out to me about this, I was like, my God, like this is... You know, I didn't expect any of my LinkedIn posts to lead to these great interactions like this, but I'm glad that it is because I really do feel like sharing your stories and being open and being vulnerable is so incredibly important for folks to just be seen and to know that they're not going through situations in isolation, but that they can pull from other people's experiences as well.
Jolie Shapiro07:15.189
Yeah, I really appreciate that. it's really, it's been interesting, you know, going through, think of on my 17th or 18th episode. Yeah, it's been great. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I appreciate that. It's been a year. So it's been, it's been a slow build, but within really cool is everyone has a different perspective, but there's a lot of similarities and what they're struggling with. And I think actually what was really cool is I was talking to a podcast guest and someone listened to it and said, Hey, I'm struggling with the same thing. And I connected him to the podcast.
Che Ugwuala07:27.435
Wow. Okay, wow. Okay, okay.
Jolie Shapiro07:54.6
and they had a conversation. like that's the power of I think what this movement is. And I really appreciate your posts. I mean, you're so open and that's why I reached out to you. And so let's get on to the questions before we go on for two hours.
Che Ugwuala08:10.367
Okay. We need to do like introductions or anything like that.
Jolie Shapiro08:15.861
well, that's kind of my introduction question. Like what makes you, you, cause it's funny. was talking. So the reason I asked that is because it may be, and this is going to be edited, but the reason I asked that is in the beginning, I used to ask, like, tell me a little bit about yourself. And, and one of the guests called me out. He's like, everyone asks that again. He's like, just ask, ask something like, cause you're going to be in the show notes. Like you're all of your stuff is going to be like, find out more about Che.
Che Ugwuala08:19.455
Okay, got it. Okay, got it. Okay, gotcha. Okay, okay. okay, got it, got it, got it.
Jolie Shapiro08:45.717
Here's resources that he recommends. Yeah, your aunt is gonna be like, oh, this random guy. Yeah, yeah, so it's, yeah, no, you're gonna, you're you're gonna be all over. But, okay, so let me do better transition to, to let's move on to the questions. Let me just, hold on. My fiance is going skiing, one sec. I'm just gonna get rid of the...
Che Ugwuala08:52.053
Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, No, it's all good.
Jolie Shapiro09:22.121
Work from home. He's giving my dogs their sticks. Our dogs are sticks right now. This is gonna be interesting. For my editor to edit. Okay. Okay. I think we're good. Okay. All right. So thank you so much for, again, for coming on. A few questions for you. You ready? Awesome. So what was the exact moment you realized he always on culture was unsustainable for you?
Che Ugwuala09:36.909
You Yeah, I would say that was a fairly recent, I wouldn't say epiphany, it was more of a shock in the face. My kids who are, I've got three kids, my son who's nine years old and I've got twin girls that are six years old. They called a family meeting and in that family meeting, they wanted to air out their grievances. And what they wanted to talk to me about was that they felt like they weren't getting enough of me. Some context for you is, you know, I work at Google, I work on Android marketing. It's very, very fast paced. There's a lot of stuff that's happening. And in my role, I deal with partner management, which requires me to travel quite a bit, both domestically and internationally. So, you know, there was a period of time where I was like traveling like every other week. And my kids basically sat me down and said that, Dad, we love you. We love... that you get to do all these cool things in your job, you get to travel, you've gotten promoted. Like all those things are really great for you, but it's almost coming at an expense to spending time with us. And that was a big like wake up call for me that... I kind of already knew this already, that the pace that I was moving was just like not sustainable. But I felt like I was doing this in the greater service of trying to provide for my family. That being my North Star, where I didn't take time to understand that. Yes, that's also important, but they also need my time too. They need me to be leaned in. They need me to not be distracted by an email that's coming through. They want really good quality time with me. And that was something that I will admit that in a year and a half. I wasn't able to do that for them in a meaningful way. And so that for me was a moment of just like total clarity around I need to do something different and I need to do something different now.
Jolie Shapiro12:54.549
of all that is so brave of you to talk about that openly because we all, not all of us, but a lot of us are guilty of it including myself. building this podcast and some subsequent things that are coming from it, I would wake up at 5 a.m. be at my computer for hours upon hours upon hours trying to you know quote-unquote make it and we're We get so isolated and we're not present with the people that matter. Actually, I talked with someone the other day and it's basically like, what are we going to remember on our deathbeds? Are we going to remember, you know, working at, I mean, obviously Google is an amazing company, but are we going to remember our amazing careers or are we going to remember our kids telling us, there for me? And then you are.
Che Ugwuala13:51.83
Great.
Jolie Shapiro13:54.174
Like that's the kind of stuff I would remember personally. mean, the fact that your kids stood up to you is amazing. Like I would, I'd be like, I raised you right.
Che Ugwuala14:06.349
Yeah, yeah, it was it was a really tough conversation. It was a tough pill for me to swallow to be to be honest. And they were giving me like they were telling me telling it to me like it like it is my eye. It took a lot of just like courage and bravery to your point on their part to be vulnerable with me about how they were feeling and. To me it was just like, my God, what do I do with this information? I've got to be able to act on this because everything that I'm doing is in service of them and if they're not seeing the value of it, then I've got to figure out a way to readjust my life so that they can feel valued.
Jolie Shapiro14:57.621
I'm just I'm not ignoring him actually writing my responses because I tend to like blank out and like I like I have so many thoughts that I want to say and then I like forget everything and then have to remember so I'm not ignoring you. Alright, thank you. I was in. Of course I didn't write it down so there we go. But you're talking about your kids.
Che Ugwuala15:10.603
No, no, no, you're fine. You're good. you
Jolie Shapiro15:22.961
which I do do do do do standing up. We'll move on. because I had just, it's not coming to me. but this is great. I love your answers. let me, where the hell'd you go? Thank God for editing. I your outfit by the way. It is so cool. Can you wear that where you work? that is amazing. I have no idea what I've never worked at Google, so I don't really know the culture. Nice. That's awesome. Okay. Here's the questions. Okay, so not number two.
Che Ugwuala15:45.439
thanks. I appreciate that. Thank you. yeah, I totally got it. Yeah, people wear like shorts and whatever, it's... Yeah, flip-flops.
Jolie Shapiro16:07.721
The AI arms race, you don't want that one. Okay, yeah, we'll skip that. Yeah, we don't need to do Google trade secrets. All right, let's start over. Okay, so, well, that's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing. Just pivoting a little bit. What was the exact moment you realized, did I, just, Jesus Christ. Okay, thank you so much for sharing. Really appreciate it. Your openness is just really inspiring.
Che Ugwuala16:08.162
yeah, the AI is one of those races. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro16:37.353
Just pivoting a little bit, when partner expectations start piling up, how do you remind yourself you're a whole person, not just a work unit?
Che Ugwuala16:46.081
Yeah, that's a really great question. And the one thing that I tend to go back to, or the one statement that I tend to go back to a lot is that we're not saving lives here at all. Like that is it, period, stop. At the end of the day, like I'm not in a career that's specifically curing cancer or ending poverty at all. And I don't want to diminish what I do, but it's really important to sort of take a step back and put it into perspective and into context around what else is going on in the world. that not everything is important all at once. Not everything is urgent all at once. And so. I think that reminder for me has been sort of helpful to sort of take down the anxiety or the tension around trying to meet not only partner expectations, but also like internal stakeholder expectations, home expectations. I think that's a different, that's also a different thing as well, but it. It's just helpful for me to sort of rebalance myself and also the folks around me too. And that's something that I generally like to also just tell my team that listen, at the end of the day, all we're doing is making a lot of other people a lot of money. That's truly at the end of the day. And so we're not saving anyone's life. So focus on what matters to you. Focus on what you can do. and then we'll have to sort of set expectations for everything else.
Jolie Shapiro18:37.001
That's amazing. It's funny. this is why he writes it down. Jesus Christ. My ADHD, my, my podcast editor left me a whole voice note and was like, do you want to do text to voice to get your thoughts down? And I'm like, are you calling me out? My raging ADHD? And he said, well, I didn't say it. I laughed so hard. was like, I was like, that was the most polite way.
Che Ugwuala19:02.093
my gosh, that's hilarious. Ha
Jolie Shapiro19:08.681
So say I have like severe ADHD. So the question of partner, sorry, can you repeat that last line that you said?
Che Ugwuala19:11.572
Yeah. I don't remember what it was, I think what I was saying is, you know, the idea that we're not saving lives here is something that I try to also instill with my team too, that we've got to just prioritize what we can reasonably do in a day and just manage expectations for everything else because...
Jolie Shapiro19:21.897
the concept.
Che Ugwuala19:45.91
At the end of the day, things are going to, the ship is still gonna keep sailing. And it's not worth, it's not worth your own personal stress and mental health worrying about things that will still happen regardless if you're in that, regardless if you're there or not.
Jolie Shapiro20:10.023
Yeah, I totally agree. actually had a post on LinkedIn a while back and it was takeaways from all my conversations that were going to mind over the past year. And the consensus is we are all so stressed for being in tech.
Che Ugwuala20:26.347
Yes. Yes. Have you interviewed with lot of other tech folks?
Jolie Shapiro20:27.369
Hehehehe yeah, yeah, a lot of, lot of CEOs, founders of B2B SaaS companies.
Che Ugwuala20:41.025
Gotcha, got it, got it, yeah. I mean, we're just like at this crazy inflection point right now, especially with the acceleration of AI, where it's truly becoming sort of the next game changing technology that people are losing their minds. Like people don't know what to do with this. And... I think when that happens, I think we tend to kind of want to try to do everything all at once and kind of see and figure out what works. And so. What I've been trying to sort of instill just across my teams is... the area of just like focus right now because at the pace that we're moving is quite frankly not sustainable. And we've got to figure out how to sort of refocus our energies on opportunities that are going to be longer term big bets for us. That makes sense for us as an organization, but obviously for the consumer as well. I think that's obviously the the number one thing is like, we've got to make sure that we're building products that are helpful to consumers. But the way that we get there sometimes can be a little bit messy. And so I think in this dawn of AI, there's just a lot of unknowns. But I think we're all trying to tackle this with the best of intent and in the best. in the best possible way with the limited knowledge that we have, but I'm hopeful. But at the same time, I've got to also create a space where I can just sort of protect my own personal boundaries as we're entering into this very uncharted territory.
Jolie Shapiro22:55.771
Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's funny, but not funny. feel like AI, Claude, chat should be T, Gemini, insert here, has lowered my IQ.
Che Ugwuala23:09.901
You think so?
Jolie Shapiro23:14.195
I actually think I got dumber.
Che Ugwuala23:20.589
Okay, I think fair point. The way that I look at it, and my wife knocks me too about this as well, because I mean I use my products. But. The way I see it is that it's saving me time for doing things that would have taken me forever to do. And that is then allowing me to then focus on other things that I actually really enjoy doing. And so I kind of look at it as like my little secret superpower in a way of being able to. quite frankly, giving people the perception that they energize upon you, which, you know, that's another thing. But yeah, I think it is helpful in the sense of, you know, giving you that space to then allow you to be able to focus on other activities that you really enjoy, like doing this podcast with you.
Jolie Shapiro24:24.853
for sure. It's interesting and I really agree with that. I was half joking, but really do you feel like it's also forced us to be more creative and more strategic. And even though, like, for example, I used to use it to decipher documents, this was like hundreds and hundreds of hundreds of documents. We can't garner insights from that. Like it's, it's impossible. would take us probably a few months, but now you can get the insights and then you can quote unquote, to your point, be the energizer bunny because you have the insights. to create the strategy or the campaign or whatever you need to do. And then you don't need to sweat the small stuff.
Che Ugwuala25:13.951
Yeah, that's exactly right. I think Ariana Huffington, she like said this really eloquently as well, and I'm probably gonna butcher this, but I think we should start reframing how we think about AI in terms of what it means from a deficit standpoint, but like how can AI help us be better humans? You know what I mean? And I think there's just so much untapped potential there that we're just at the very tip of the iceberg, to be quite honest. And so I'm personally excited about what that looks like in the future. I know some people are scared about that, but like, this is where everything is heading. And so it's a matter of just trying to figure out how this is going to be able to benefit mankind.
Jolie Shapiro26:14.741
For sure, I think using it as a tool and not a crutch.
Che Ugwuala26:19.339
Yeah, exactly. And that's what it is at the end of the day.
Jolie Shapiro26:24.841
Yeah, think where I, the point where I made, where I got to the joke of this has made me just lowered my IQ is I was leaning on it too heavily. And I mean, this is like a total, total blunder, but it started doing work for me. I wouldn't even, I wouldn't even read it. I wouldn't even read the work. And that's something where I think,
Che Ugwuala26:36.491
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro26:54.097
it can really cause laziness. Like if you have the perfect input into AI, especially like ChatGPT Pro, it can spit out a perfect answer. And that's what scares me. Cause it's like, where do we come in?
Che Ugwuala27:04.909
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro27:14.687
So that's a little scary, but.
Che Ugwuala27:17.943
get that. I see that I definitely understand that and I think it's and I don't know like the way that I also look at it too is just at the degree of like how you're using it and if you're using it for something that you actually don't need to really understand or know in depth the output of it. And that is also totally okay. You know what mean? But I think that is also just a person to person comfort level as well. And so, yeah, I think it's good that like you're also just sort of acknowledging the role that AI should serve for you and where you want to draw the line. And I think everyone should sort of have that as a helpful sort of guide for them as well.
Jolie Shapiro28:23.123
Yeah, I really think that we're all discovering what line works for us and what boundaries work for us. Speaking of boundaries, I'm never this, I'm never this segwayed. So this is awesome. I'm very proud of myself. Right now I can't find the question of course. Okay. After taking a month off, what unexpected boundary did you set that shifted your work-life balance?
Che Ugwuala28:28.076
Yeah. You Yeah, so going back to the meeting that I had with my kids, where they just like, dad, like, we need to see more of you. And I was kind of spiraling a little bit from that and trying to figure out. at least what is something that I can do tangibly right now that can just drive some immediate impact? I know what we're working through is longer term changes in behavior. And so what I did was I was just upfront and vulnerable with my manager and my leadership chain around. These are things that I was already feeling, already, like my kids just gave me the voice to articulate it in a way that was really ringing the alarm bells. And so, you know, I let my manager know that like, hey, like I need some time off. Like I need to take a step back from work and be able to recalibrate. where I'm putting my time right now and that my kids are the focus for me, like the 100 % focus for me right now. And so I can't get my best at work right now knowing that there is like a mini crisis for me at home. And so I was met with so much support and positivity around that, that my manager, his manager, and going up the chain were totally fine with me just literally without a weaker, like giving them like a weaker, less than a week notice, like taking a month off so that I could just be able to reset things at home and. you know, spend that time with the kids in a way that was meaningful and that was not distracted by any sort of work deliverables or expectations. And that to me was an incredible gift that I could just do. And coming back to work, I think because I was so upfront around why I needed that time, That in itself inherently created the boundary that I needed for folks to know that I've got to recalibrate a bit, even coming back. And that, you know, I can't be taking calls at crazy odd times of the hours because we're a global team. And so, you know, we work with everywhere and everyone across the world. And so I'll be meeting late at night with APAC and sometimes early meetings with the MIA. And I've got to find a way to do that that's more sustainable. so blocking off like clear times within my calendar that I can just make sure that I'm using to focus for family time became something that everyone knew was just important for me.
Jolie Shapiro32:15.977
That's really enlightening. And I think a lot of our listeners are really good at resonating with that. Something that resonated with me is I feel like. I mean, I don't want make an assumption, but did you feel like you came back stronger at work because you had that reset?
Che Ugwuala32:34.517
Yeah, I think that I did, but what I was also, and I'll be candid with you as well, what I also didn't realize I was also battling with was really undiagnosed major depression. And so I think... Having that reset was, yes, a bit of a nice recharge, but I also wasn't dealing with some of the other issues that I was also experiencing as well. so that was something that was sort of lingering as well that I think prevented me too from being able to come back and truly feel like I was my full and authentic self. And that is still a journey that I'm going through, but I've definitely made significant strides since then. And this was something that happened late in Q4, sorry, late last year in Q4.
Jolie Shapiro33:43.638
Well, thank you so much for being so open. know it's, well, speaking of experience, it's really tough to open up about mental health because we, I I don't know how Google is with this, but a lot of companies, there's still a lot of stigma. companies are very, know, if you've diabetes, it's okay. If you have major depression, you're crazy.
Che Ugwuala33:59.191
Yeah. Yeah, I think I feel lucky to work for a company that does have the resources to help support their teams or their employees. But I think... There's still though, right, despite, you know, Google as a company, as an organization providing those resources, there's still, there's still, you know, there's still a stigma there, you know, there's still a stigma for whether or not it's something that we're sort of interpreting in our own minds or manifesting in our own minds. But there's still something there. There's still sort of like this level of just, this is something we don't talk about, sort of a thing. And I think for me, I wanted to be able to change that a little bit and peel the onion, peel that layer of... vulnerability for other folks to also really know that I'm struggling right now and that I'm not showing up in my best self and I'm getting the help to get better but that what I'm going through you could easily be also going through as well and that I want you to know that you're not alone in this and so that that was actually a really big reason why I decided to just start to be more active on LinkedIn to be quite honest was me going through that experience and feeling like I was doing that in isolation and I felt a lot of shame and guilt that like, why can't I just get my life together right now? Everyone else around me seems like they're living their best life and they can manage all of this. And for some reason, like I can't. And the reality is a lot of people are going through the same exact things that I was going through. It's just, they didn't feel... secure enough to let others know. And I thought that I could help at least do my part in trying to shift and change the narrative around that.
Jolie Shapiro36:58.441
Yeah. And I loved your posts. That's, think I saw one of your first ones. was like, I gotta talk to this guy. And it wasn't, it was not because of Google. It was like you, you really had some great insights and it is honestly, I haven't even posted about that. So the fact that, you know, you did is, is awesome. If you don't mind me asking and let me know if, you don't feel comfortable answering this, but
Che Ugwuala37:07.915
Yeah
Jolie Shapiro37:27.401
What has your journey with depression looked like?
Che Ugwuala37:31.136
Yeah, it's been a ongoing journey. I got to a place late last year, early this year, where I effectively like hit rock bottom. And I couldn't even like recognize myself in the mirror and things that would once, things that I could once tolerate, I couldn't anymore. And I couldn't, my thought processes were just like everywhere. And it just got to a place where I needed to be hospitalized. Like I needed to go into inpatient care and completely disconnect myself from the world. and focus on my mental health because it was getting that bad, it was that bad. And that was the best thing that I could have ever done for myself. I even walked into inpatient behavioral health care with all of these different misconceptions around the facility and the people that were there, that I had to really catch myself. You know what I mean? Like even me at my lowest point, I still felt like I was still better than the people that were here. And that was such a crazy bias. and that I just had to kind of really quickly reframe because these were people who were struggling just like me, who were human just like me. Yes, we might come from different circumstances, but we're still here. That was like really leveling for me, to be honest. And so, It created an opportunity for me to just connect with people that I probably wouldn't interact with on a day-to-day basis and to truly learn from their experiences because we all have something valuable to teach each other no matter where you are, no matter what your walk of life looks like. And so that was... a game changing, life changing experience for me to give me the space and the time to unpack. my feelings and the state that I was in, there was like zero distractions. I had to basically hand in my cell phone, like no one can get in contact with me. Our days were very structured, there was limited TV time. So a lot of it was just really self-reflection, journaling, doing music therapy, talking to other people. It was the best thing that I could have ever done. also just being able to be put on the right medication and I will I will just say that I'm a big proponent of medication and that for me it was just what I needed and a game changer for me to be able to manage through my own personal depression. And having that, going through that experience and having medication plus the outpatient tools that were also readily available to me as well, doing a lot of group therapy work, gave me... such a different view and perspective on life, I honestly felt like in those few months, I felt reborn in a way that I was emerging as a different version of myself that I didn't recognize, but in a better way than I was before.
Jolie Shapiro41:45.811
You almost made me tear up. That's the first time I'm ever admitting it publicly, but you inspired me. I was in one too.
Che Ugwuala41:47.255
No. Yeah, yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that at all, you know? And I see you, I see you, Jolie. I see you.
Jolie Shapiro42:06.705
I see you too. Yeah, it's a I think it gives us a sort of empathy that not a lot of people have. and we just understand. how crazy life can be. I won't get into the whole story, but I was 20, so I'm 33 now, so 13 years ago. And I needed help and was hospitalized against my will. Because they thought I wasn't actually suicidal, but I said I didn't feel safe. So that was their correlation with suicide. but it was the, it was the best thing that ever happened to me as well. I was only there for two days because my mom pulled me out. I didn't go my record, but she's like, I am coming up. She took like the next flight the next day. yo, she was like, she was on it. I think in LCSW, you know, she, licensed counselor, she's like, I am no, this is not happening. But,
Che Ugwuala43:07.766
really? Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro43:20.807
Yeah, it was a 13 year journey and, and you know, it's funny, was talking to my fiance and he said, it's never, it's not like it stops. It does not stop. I kept think exactly, I kept thinking I'm going to reach, I'm going to take this medication and go to this amount of therapy and do this, this, and this. And then one day I'm going to reach my pinnacle and be perfectly fine. No, that is not how it works.
Che Ugwuala43:30.355
It doesn't stop. It does not stop.
Jolie Shapiro43:47.433
So thank you for sharing. You really inspired me to actually say something personal. Thank you.
Che Ugwuala43:54.845
yeah, no, of course. I told you that's my energy.
Jolie Shapiro43:59.478
Yeah, oh my god, you're right. That's so true. Oh my gosh. Damn, you're good. That really is because I literally have never said that on a podcast. It's just literally like that. Like I said, 17, 18 episode. I've never said that. Wow. Oh, oh, I am impressed. Okay, so cutting a little bit. We're at 44 minutes. These are your deeper hard stuff. Okay.
Che Ugwuala44:03.245
you That's my superpower. Yeah. I have a call in 10 minutes. Yeah, I a hard stop. it okay? Okay, I can go on for like 15 minutes or so, but.
Jolie Shapiro44:28.725
So let's pick like maybe a couple questions. Okay. I'm trying to look at. I'm trying to look at like one question that that kind of like segues better. Just some of them were like very revenue bullshit focused. Okay, I like this one. All right. So thank you so much again. Wow. You do have a power. I am very impressed. I might tell my editor to cut this out, but screw it.
Che Ugwuala45:00.129
No No, please keep it in if you're feeling safe. Safe about it, yeah.
Jolie Shapiro45:10.815
Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. So last question before we get all the details on how to open find you if they questions or anything like that. We talked previously when we did the prep form and I got this insight from you. So when you say this too shall pass, what mental health habit helps you turn stress into a growth opportunity?
Che Ugwuala45:38.784
Yeah, so like I said, going through inpatient behavioral health care, I think that allowed me to pick up some really good tools for myself. positive affirmations and so they gave me like this list of affirmations that I have right now that I go to and I look at when I need to to help rebalance myself. Journaling has been something that has also been important for me as well and so I use this app just called The Journal I think. And it just gives me these prompts every day to just give me reminders around gratitude and what are the things that I learned today about myself and yeah, like what I'm grateful for. And so those are things that I just need like constant reminders for. because I can just get so caught up into myself and again, the day to day of things that I forget to acknowledge the privilege of the life that I have that I'm living what was once a dream for me, you know, and that I just need to be able to recognize that and to find grace and happiness in that in moments where it might just be really hard to do that. Another thing too that I've also just used as well is I've got this like repository bank of just projects that I've done that have been growth projects for me, emails of kudos and thank yous that I've gotten as well from other people. And I got this, I got this honestly from another Googler who told me they do this and it's something that I've just now started to do as well. But I kind of just saved those away and I took them away. And I love to just refer back to those things as just a reminder for myself around challenges that I've gone through, like really complicated things that I've been able to do as a reminder for myself that I can do those things. And this is also... going to create a growth moment for me. And it's just something that will also just pass and I'll be better off for it. And so those are just sort of the things that I tend to use as a way of just going through some of life's just unexpected obstacles and navigating through my own sort of personal mental health journey.
Jolie Shapiro49:37.142
I love that. feel like I was talking to someone on podcast, sometimes it's just getting out of bed with depression. it's, or you know, XYZ mental illness, it's celebrate the small wins. Yeah, they really are. And for me, when I'm, I have a spectrum, but when I'm on one side of the spectrum, I see the world in gray and it's
Che Ugwuala49:44.365
That too. That too.
Jolie Shapiro50:06.93
So hard to be positive. It's just so hard. So the fact, like the make your bed analogy, like that's a win.
Che Ugwuala50:16.843
That's a huge one. was something we, like during group work, we talked about that. Like just even being able to just do basic hygiene, like brushing your teeth, that came up in group. And I was just like, Whoa, yeah, like when you're not in your best self, like just doing those little things can be so difficult. So, you know, celebrate when you're able to accomplish these tasks because It's not easy when you're you're dealing with really hardship emotionally and mentally
Jolie Shapiro50:55.507
Yeah, definitely. And I loved your point about looking back. For me, it's really hard to look back and acknowledge. And I think for a lot of us, how far we've come. My fiance says all the time, like three years ago, you were a mess and you have come so far and you have to recognize that. And I feel like it's hard for people like us with mental illness to look back. I don't know if it's like the, cause we're clouded, like our brains are, I mean, I'm not a professional, but like our brains are clouded. through those moments. it's, at least for me, it's hard to look back and be like, wow, I can't believe I did that.
Che Ugwuala51:47.989
It's true. Sometimes you need external validation and reminders to be quite honest. And so it's so good that you have a partner that is so supportive and helps you really reflect on your journey as well. Because I think surrounding yourself and having a community of people you can trust that can just be reminders for you around your journey. It's so, so helpful. I can't understate that at all. That is just so important in trying to move forward and to do so with grace and a positive way as well.
Jolie Shapiro52:32.649
Completely agree. On that note, I know you're on LinkedIn and I'm going to put everything in the show notes, but would love your take on how people can reach you.
Che Ugwuala52:41.761
Yeah, I think the best way to reach me honestly is on LinkedIn. I'm super active on there. I actually am not on any other social media platform. I've been pretty intentional about, you know, being on social. we can probably go into another discussion around that, but like I've had to actually sort of... sober up on social media, to be quite honest. At one point it was just, I would say like an addiction for me. so LinkedIn is basically the most that I will do and the most active that I, it's the platform that I'm most active on. So that's where you can find me.
Jolie Shapiro53:31.719
Awesome. Well, this is great. Thank you so much for joining. And I think everyone's going to get a lot of value out of this.
Che Ugwuala53:37.345
Yeah, no, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.