Jolie Shapiro00:02.066
Everyone, welcome to the revenue mind podcast. I'm Julia, your host where we talk about all things mental health and revenue leadership with us is Sam. Welcome, Sam.
Sam Dunning00:11.948
Hey, thanks for me on. I look forward to the chat.
Jolie Shapiro00:15.084
Yeah, for sure. Thank you for your patience. I know it's been a little bit of a hectic ride, but really looking forward to getting into this. So I don't prep a lot of people for this, but really anyone. First question, what makes you you?
Sam Dunning00:32.92
Good question, very good one. So I suppose there's a number of things really. What makes me me, a bit of a deep one, but I'll go out from what I can. I suppose I haven't always been, but I nearly always have a bit of a chip on my shoulder. So pretty much with most things that I've done, be it anything from starting a podcast to going to the gym to... where I'm going on for running where I'm with my own business. I suppose I've always think that I need to do one better than I am. So I'm a bit for better or worse. I've always got that kind of chip where I think I'm in this certain place, but I think I could be, doing a little bit better, but outside of work and business, quite laid back, generally speaking, sometimes too laid back. have a family have two kids, a wife, and a lot to be thankful for. Run an agency, so used to high stress levels, one day being great on top of the world, the next day wondering what the heck's going on, putting about 10 fires. So that's the probably briefest snapshot of it. But happy to dive in as you wish.
Jolie Shapiro01:53.726
Yeah, I that. tend to nod and smile a lot on these podcasts because I can just I tend to relate to something that everyone says, like just this one liner. I definitely am like that too. I feel like a lot of us are like that. It's never enough, especially in business. There's always something, there's always more clients to be had or more money to be made or insert dilemma here or fire to be put out. just, it's never,
Sam Dunning02:24.727
Mm-hmm.
Jolie Shapiro02:41.738
I don't know if there's ever a day where we said, wow. I am content with what happened today. are your thoughts there?
Sam Dunning02:53.834
Yeah, some sometimes yes, sometimes no, which isn't the best response. I'm a lot of people hate him, but I quite like hormones the way hormones he some sums things up. So he calls it the game. Like he often compares business things to video games, which I quite like. I quite like that comparison. The case of this, everything's kind of, you're trying to get to a set objective and there's very little inputs that you've got to put in behaviors, activities, et cetera, to get to the desired outcome. So you can't just get an outcome. There's various things you've got to do, which some may be tough, some may be easier. So I quite like that way of looking at it. Is it always that easy? Of course not. Are you in the mood to do certain things some days? Definitely not. Should you probably still do it? Yes. Do I always do it? No. But if you can do, if you can have more days when you're doing the right activities, so certainly from a business standpoint and pretty much anything life, whether it's your personal relationships, whether it's fitness then. Getting those things done is always good, but I'm certainly guilty of slacking from now on.
Jolie Shapiro03:59.006
Is that what you meant by being a little bit too laid back?
Sam Dunning04:03.278
no, I think it's more like people have joined, I've done a lot of these podcasts over the years because I run my own show and sometimes I think marketing leaders, cause I sell, we run a B2B SaaS SEO agency. sell to a lot of like revenue leaders, marketing leaders, founders. I think some expect me to join the cool, being super salesy, like saying like, we're the best agency ever. All that kind of stuff. Whereas I'm literally the opposite. So I'm more like. you need to convince me that you're someone worth working with. Like I'll ask you a bunch of questions to see if we're a good fit. I don't know if we're a good fit at this stage. I'd rather learn more about your business, who you serve, where you're at, where you'd like to get to. And then we can kind of mutually decide together if there's some business to be done. And I think that throws a lot of kind of B2B C suites back.
Jolie Shapiro04:55.434
Yeah, for sure. That actually reminds me of a message I got this morning. So I didn't necessarily elope, but we got married in front of this immediate family, very small, and my husband and I were having a big party next year. So I reached out to a few places via the knot. I don't know if there's an equivalent in the UK, but.
Sam Dunning05:19.384
Okay.
Jolie Shapiro05:20.522
Yeah, it's just it's a wedding app. So are you in the UK? I want to make sure I got that right. Okay, good. Okay, good. was like, I thought so, but I didn't want to screw that up. And people be like, Hmm, yeah, she fucked that up. Okay, cool. Yeah, so I was on the knot, which is just a wedding app. And instead of a hard sell. I really liked what they did. They said if you're not ready to tour yet, you can book a discovery call.
Sam Dunning05:22.574
Gotcha. Yeah, yeah, I'm in the southwest of England. Ha! No worries.
Jolie Shapiro05:51.242
And I was like, wow, for a wedding venue to do that? You guys got your sales stuff on tap. I'm going to book a discovery call with you. So I feel like in.
Sam Dunning05:59.214
Mm.
Jolie Shapiro06:06.282
being a founder and for you being a founder and a an agency owner. I think it catches people off guard in a good way. When you are laid back, I feel like that's part of your does like a superpower. So a lot of people are like, sell, sell, buy my shit. And, and you're more like, hey, like if we work out great. If not, you know, all good. I like that.
Sam Dunning06:35.104
Yeah, I follow. I don't know if you know a guy called Josh Braun, but he's yeah, he's a sales sales guy on LinkedIn. Got a pretty good following I'd say of revenue leaders and stuff, but he talks a lot about detaching from the outcome. And a lot of this is, this is going on a bit of a tangent on sales, but a lot of it comes down to having a from certainly from a revenue and from a sales perspective, like I've made all these mistakes. I've been doing this a long time. I've been in the sales game a long time. And if I look back, most of that time where I was kind of putting high pressure on prospects, they'd always pull away. So whenever I try and hard sell someone, they'd always detach and I'd wonder why I'd get ghosted. And if I look back, why that was, it was always because I had a pretty small pipeline. Like I wasn't actively prospecting, wasn't doing cold outreach. wasn't doing much content marketing. I didn't have various channels to drive leads. And as a result, I had a small thin pipeline. and I was putting high stress on these prospects to buy. These days, I'm doing a lot to fill that pipeline, whether it's with content, LinkedIn, our podcast, referrals, partnerships, et cetera, our own SEO. So it means as a result, you're a bit more relaxed, because it means like if one prospect isn't of great fit, no worries, let's keep them in the funnel. Let's nurture them with, them to our email list and let's move on to the next.
Jolie Shapiro08:00.652
For sure. And there's a lot of psychology, as we all know as marketers and sales and customer success. There's a lot of psychology behind it. I feel like when you get on that call, it, I don't know about you, but I tend to feel, it sounds so like hippie, but I kind of tend to feel the energy. Like on a Zoom, like you can just, some things like off or. they're having a bad day or they're not into it, they're distracted, they're thinking about something, thousand other things that they have to do. And what I learned at one of my agencies that I worked at is that you have to read the room and pivot and adjust during those, when speaking with clients and when speaking with prospects. Cause if you're like, hey, is everything okay? So that might not be okay. And they might, open up about their kids and then, you know, even if you don't go through that deal, you've established that trust and that relationship. So I think there is a lot behind that.
Sam Dunning09:11.842
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, cells is a funny old game. Like you said, there's a lot of psychology in it. There, there should be a framework to sales calls in my opinion. And I think like you said then also calling folks out, like I've had a bunch of sales calls where people have even been rude at the start. And in my younger days, I'd just go along with it and almost just return every question they had. Whereas these days I said, look, this is a two way conversation. If you're going to straight away ask me to show everything, not let me ask some questions. mean, this is a discovery call. I need to ask you some questions. You need to ask me some, need to mutually decide if there's some business to be done. If that's not going to be possible, I'm afraid we're not going to be a good match. So I'm happy to refer you to someone else. Otherwise we can just leave it there. And that could be to a founder of a company. That could be to CMO. That could be a VP of marketing. It doesn't matter, but there needs to be that mutual level of respect. Cause if they're, if they're not being kind on a initial call, what the heck are they going to be like as a client? Like it's an immediate red flag, but that's just one aspect of it, Going to market selling, there's so much to it. Like I said, there's lot of psychology. There should be a framework in place. There should be a system that you can follow to find out if prospects are a good match for your business and so on.
Jolie Shapiro10:27.072
Yeah, for sure, I completely agree with that. So, gonna ask you some kind of tough questions, but I feel like you having 400 something odd podcasts, you're gonna be super just on the fly while prepared. So let's roll with it. Yeah, let's test it out. You ready?
Sam Dunning10:42.776
Let's see, never know. Let's go.
Jolie Shapiro10:49.324
Let's go. All right. So first question, what's the weirdest place or moment where a mental health insight hit you like a freight train?
Sam Dunning11:01.39
Weirdest place or moment? There's probably a few. probably a few so I think one where One where weirdly I think where I was on holiday last year where we'd not long. So my, my agency breaking B2B is like going into month 17. But if you rewind pretty much a year ago to now, when I went away with my family to Greece and I realized I had all these clients to manage, but at the same time I was meant to be on holiday, having fun with my family, plus other families, parents-in-law, cousins, et cetera, that come with us. And it's like, I was panicking cause I'd close this business and I had these new deals on the line, but I was like, I'm going to have to spend a good couple hours each day managing these projects on Slack. And I can't really be present with my family and it's not fair on them. And we've done that. So that was one, that was one that came to mind. Another time was when we were how old I was probably about 18, 19 long story, but our house burnt down in the night when we were asleep and that. That was at the time it didn't do much for me because it was kind of all in one flow in the sense that I was living with my dad. My parents had recently separated. I was living with my dad. I was 18. We were also living with my uncle and auntie. And yeah, we had a, old thatch cottage in the countryside in Southwest Somerset in England. And the weird thing was we recently had the chimney serviced. So in theory it should have been safe, but at the time My dad was actually dealing with like really bad depression. And this fire actually, although it was quite a terrible thing, the whole house burned down. It was actually a blessing in disguise as it got my dad out of a really bad place. So he could be with our other family who lived like 30 minutes away from us, who are actually lovely people, probably the best people we could have stayed with. Christians, really nice, really upbeat people that kind of... you could be in a bad mindset and they'd get you in a good mood kind of thing. So that kind of flipped his life around. I didn't think much of it then, but I think over the years it kind of hit me more and more as time went on. Because I was still like doing stuff. was only 18, 19. I was still working at that time in a retail shop before I went into the agency world. And yeah, I I suppose we all have weird things, right? Everyone has different ways of dealing with it. I'm one of those ones that will put it back in my mind and block it until I have to deal with it. That's a couple of things that I guess come to front of mind.
Jolie Shapiro13:41.226
Yeah, thank you so much for being so transparent. off, I am so sorry that that is terrible. I mean, wow. Yeah, as long as I'm glad everyone was okay.
Sam Dunning13:49.708
No one's injured though, nothing like it. Really it wasn't like, yeah, yeah, there was no fatalities and it was only stuff and like these days I don't even think too much about it, but very fortunate really.
Jolie Shapiro14:02.154
I yeah, yeah, and I like that you mentioned it's only stuff. There's a lot of I think there's a lot of especially in America. We value a lot of material things and status and what kind of card you have what kind of house you have at least that's how it used to be. I don't know how it is now but that's a really good perspective.
Sam Dunning14:30.446
Yeah, I'm one of those like if we go away anywhere, my wife's sensible. So she'll be like, we've to make sure everything's packed well and stuff like that. And I'm like, we might lose some stuff. If not, we can always get some more when we're there. as you can tell, like my laid back attitude and comparison.
Jolie Shapiro14:47.296
I will literally leave one thing behind everywhere I go. It's the weirdest thing. It's like one thing and it could be something, not a passport or driver's license or anything like that, like, let's see, charger, a jacket.
Sam Dunning15:06.604
I'll tell you how bad I am. Yeah, only like this is a clear example of how bad I am. Yesterday. I went to collect my son from school somehow lost my house key whilst walking to the school. And then because my wife was way in the city watching a show with the rest of with her mom and sister, I then had to get to a house climb in through the living room window and then let us all in. That's how bad I am.
Jolie Shapiro15:34.674
Yeah, I mean, yeah, you win. You win that. my gosh. So want to talk about burnout a little bit.
Sam Dunning15:39.672
Pretty bad.
Jolie Shapiro15:47.892
If this is phrased in a weird way, we'll cut it. So I want to talk about burnout a little bit. If burnout had a voice, what would it say? And when was the last time it spoke up?
Sam Dunning16:02.54
Hmm. For me, just seem to illnesses really like my main thing, I can only speak to personal experiences, but if I get like really tired or burnt out, get styes, it's like in your eyes where in my case, it just like pain and like your eye, you need to rub your eye all the time, which is like the worst thing you can do to a stye in your eye. So that's kind of like when I'm doing, I just get really tired and weakened and all that sort of things like in my last agency. that I exited out of that had three co-founders or three co-owners rather. In the end, I moved on and started this company, Breaking B2B, because we all kind of had different goals of where we wanted to take the business. And towards the end of that relationship, I was getting really stressed out because I wanted to kind of push forward and grow as much as possible and move into the B2B space. Whereas one company owner had their own SaaS business on the side, so didn't really care about the agency so much. And then another owner had a different... different direction in the end we parted ways. But up to that point I was getting so stressed out and my wife was on at me to start my own thing for years and years and I never did it. I was always kind of too scared or thought terrible things will happen. And so I suppose with me it kind of, yeah, you get tired out, get, I get styes, but everyone I guess gets different symptoms or illnesses or, or might be mental, right? It might not be any physical things, but that's mine, I guess.
Jolie Shapiro17:27.574
Yeah, yeah, I, that's bring me back. I was at a company that was really intense, kind of like up at five in the morning doing webinars and that kind of intense. And there was one day where I wake up and my, I'm like, wait, I can't see. WTF, I can't see. And my eyes blew up to the point. I sent one of my, they call them Rook besties, like one of my really good friends at work. I was like, I can't be on camera today. My eyes are like the size of, or my eyelids are the size of, I don't know, golf balls. I can't be on camera today. So it's interesting. There's physical manifestations and then there's the kind of like that invisible, like it's all in your, not all in your head, but it's manifesting in your head and you have these just either obsessive thoughts or anxiety or...
Sam Dunning18:15.639
Amen.
Jolie Shapiro18:26.604
What do people think of me? I mean, it goes in different directions. But I'm sorry about your sty. That sounds really painful.
Sam Dunning18:36.962
Fairly, I mean, I suppose like you say, I'm one of those people that brushes everything off. I'm like, that's okay, move on. But I guess I kind of have to, because I run this business and we've only got so many staff right now as we're still growing. So it's kind of one of those things that everything kind of gets pushed back. Is that the best way of dealing with it? Probably not. Is it how I'll deal with it for the short term? Yeah, I think so.
Jolie Shapiro19:05.164
For sure, yeah, I definitely am. was talking, who was I talking with? I talking with one of the podcast guests and I think it was yesterday. I was just like, I don't wanna feel jack shit. So I'll throw myself into anything possible to not feel. And I think it's definitely a coping mechanism either that we're taught as kids or growing up. in school, like you get you get made fun of for crying or you know whomever, or you know, whatever the case is. And then we just like, stuff it. Or like you're saying in your case, you kind of like roll off your shoulder. But in reality, I'm assuming you're feeling it.
Sam Dunning19:51.416
yeah, for sure. For sure. It's a tough, tough balance, isn't it? Like you definitely gotta, I think men in general, not all, but certainly my family and folks I know are terrible at brushing things off and putting things on the back burner. But like you say, being able to have spaces to open up is important. In my experience, us guys are pretty bad at it. So I think having spaces to do that is smart. which is probably something I should actively do, look to do a bit more, especially with, like you say, the stresses that come running an agency. I'm thankful that we've got some great folks on our team that have helping me kind of build things out and look after client work and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, I mean, definitely something that I could personally improve and I'm sure a lot of other folks could, could do.
Jolie Shapiro20:40.368
yeah, you are not the only one. You are not alone in that. Men, women, old, all, not all of us, but a lot of us tend to do it. Speaking of that hustle mentality, running an agency, when you're in season of hustle mode, what invisible costs do you pay that others don't see?
Sam Dunning21:06.382
Hmm, I suppose. Yeah, kind of what we talked about really, I suppose it's toll physically. if you're working, like I, as you can tell I'm in the UK, but a lot of my clients in the US. So certainly before I kind of hired someone for operations and to lead strategy for clients, then I'd be running, I still do. I run quite a lot of sales calls at night, like nine. 9pm, 930pm my time I'll run discovery calls, sales calls, that kind of stuff. Just because I'm working with time zones that are like eight hours outside of my time zone. So that, doesn't bother me. I'm, I'm quite fortunate in the sense that I suppose running a business because 80, 90 % of our clients in the US, I can go steady in my morning time and like maybe do some stuff for my family. I've got two young kids, help my wife and then do more stuff in the afternoon evening. So it kind of. balances out, but certainly in the early days I was going all gun blazing, like putting out content, managing projects, doing new business work, catching up in the evenings, answering slacks, like all that kind of stuff. that I still do have days of doing that, but then I'll have other days where it's a bit more steady, if that makes sense. So I suppose it's, it's kind of balancing out, which isn't always easy. And also what, what is the toll, suppose more physically. So you wake up in the morning, you're quite tired and the rest of it. But can I moan that much? No, cause compared to some of my friends, all I'm really doing is sitting in front of a computer and talking. So in the grand scheme of things, I could be doing something that's like 10 times physically more straining or mentally straining. So in reality, I've got to think I'm very, very fortunate.
Jolie Shapiro22:53.836
That's a really good point. think I had a post at one at one time after maybe maybe 15 interviews. It was something along the lines of we're all a little bit too stressed for being in b2b sess. Like we take it way too seriously.
Sam Dunning23:07.926
Yeah, exactly. Like, what if I was on the front line, like fighting for our country or if I was, I don't know, a nurse or a doctor or whatever, or doing something that critically is like life saving or life or death, like, don't realize how good I have it really.
Jolie Shapiro23:27.05
Yeah, no, but there's, I mean, we call it in the US, I don't know if it's a UK thing, but first world problems.
Sam Dunning23:35.372
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Yeah, we say that like, I don't know, we'll just call it a small problem was like, say something stupid like, it's too hot today. I'm really tired. And then someone will say that's first world problems or whatever, whatever it is. Cause it's never sunny where we are in the UK, but the last three days it's been like a heat wave. So people in England basically moan when it's moment it's raining moment, it's cold.
Jolie Shapiro23:39.808
I don't know if you have an equivalent, but we call it. Okay.
Sam Dunning24:02.816
Moan when it's hot, even though it's not hot much. Everything's an excuse to moan. But we'll be we'll be polite about it because we're British.
Jolie Shapiro24:09.924
Yeah, that's true. That's a really good point. That actually brings me to a follow up question. How to delegate excuse me, really do that. That actually bring the think I have an editor. Okay. That's a really good point. That actually brings me to a follow up question. How did delegating help your mental health personally?
Sam Dunning24:33.112
Probably delegating wise, I suppose from a business standpoint, it certainly took a lot of stress and things off my plate. So that's always nice. It doesn't necessarily have to be business. It could be life in general, but when you've got people that can help you out, it just kind of takes a weight off your shoulders, doesn't it? If you know that everything doesn't rely on you and you know you've got someone that you're confident can... get the job done or whatever the task is at hand, it just puts your mind at ease so much. Like I say, small thing, but as an example, when I was away last year and I had a bunch of clients that I knew that were in different time zones, US, EU, Australia, and I was in Greece, I was just stressed out like crazy. So I think it helps a lot if you've got someone that you can rely upon, whether it's talking to, whether it's supporting you, whether it's helping out, it's definitely good.
Jolie Shapiro25:29.984
Definitely. It was either Matt Gretin or Justin Rowe. But we were talking about how it's almost impossible to turn it off.
Sam Dunning25:42.61
yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I literally sometimes just come up with ideas like 11, 12, and then we'll, yeah, just note them down on my notepad. Well, my phone's not at last. That's the problem, especially running a business. you don't, some of the weirdest, some of the weirdest and best ideas I've actually had really late at night, which is kind of strange, but for better or worse, that is true. especially as a founder like Justin, he's built a much bigger agency than myself, but he is a friend of mine. He's been really supportive for my business. So I've got a lot of love for Justin, a lot of respect for what he does. Justin wrote Impact, a really good guy, actually catching up with him in a couple of days. But yeah, he's done some great stuff. Really, really humble guy, like exited the company for a few million, I think, and now is going it back again. Really, really humble. In fact, a lot of similar B2B founders are in a similar mindset. But yeah, that is the downside for better or worse. Certainly I cannot switch off. There's always, whether it's projects, whether it's marketing, whether it's content ideas, that's usually what it is, weird content ideas for me or marketing ideas. It just doesn't stop.
Jolie Shapiro26:55.094
I know it's crazy. Mine is always during a nap. I'm like, me eat when I am asleep. I'll put on this Do Not Disturb. Just like, I'm going to chill for 20 minutes. But I keep waking up because I keep having ideas. And then I write them down. No idea why.
Sam Dunning26:58.478
Hmm. Whilst you're trying to get to sleep or when you are asleep. Mm. That's quite cool though. I suppose it's annoying that it disturbs an app, but good that you get the ideas.
Jolie Shapiro27:25.194
Yeah, I get the idea. But if I do like an hour, I eventually fall asleep and get some get some good rest.
Sam Dunning27:30.592
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why, I mean, I'm lucky that I get to do something that I actually enjoy. I really enjoy a lot of the, obviously there's parts of it don't enjoy, but I'm fortunate that a lot of the work I do. So that helps so much.
Jolie Shapiro27:46.078
yeah, for sure. Yeah, this podcast is turning into something like little bit kind of like evolving. And just doing this podcast alone for the past year, my number one value is human connection. So that for me has been, I think, the number one benefit of this podcast, especially working in remote. And just hearing people's stories and just knowing you're not alone has been really powerful, especially in this climate where sometimes, or a lot of times, especially in high pressure B2B SaaS, we kind of have to suck it in and hold it in and be like, we're OK, we're fine. We're just crashing and burning on the inside. So to talk to everyone, to talk to.
Sam Dunning28:16.142
Mm.
Jolie Shapiro28:45.15
everyone over the past year has been truly a blessing for me.
Sam Dunning28:49.676
Yeah, no, I completely get that. It's, it's funny, like, running a show myself, I feel the same, like sometimes I can be on a bit of a downer or a bit stressed out weather, but then I have a great podcast conversation almost revitalizes me. Like, like you say, like talk, talk about something interesting, have some back and forth, maybe have a bit of a laugh, whatever it may be. And then you kind of go out of it and you're like, that was really fun. Convo. Like I feel completely different to when we started.
Jolie Shapiro29:17.74
Yeah, for sure. I actually had a podcast recording yesterday. The person almost didn't show up. His partner said, I don't think you should do this. He was in a really bad state. But he, I was so impressed. He came on anyway and shared what was going on. I think it was like the past week and a half that it happened. just that observing that strength and that just inner resilience. was really powerful. So stuff like that is just, I don't know, I don't cry a lot, but if I did, that would definitely, it definitely got to me in a way.
Sam Dunning29:54.638
Mm. Yeah, it sounds like it. Well, hopefully they're getting the help they need or I don't know about obviously their situation, but yeah, it sounds like they were going for a rough time.
Jolie Shapiro30:12.704
Yeah, yeah, no, they're on their way. So I know that you have a couple little kids. Super cute. How old are they?
Sam Dunning30:22.318
So we've got a seven month old little girl and then a five year old son.
Jolie Shapiro30:28.198
that's awesome. I love that. Question about your kids if you're comfortable. What's one thing your kids have taught you about leadership that no podcast or MBA ever could?
Sam Dunning30:41.634
Hmm. Leadership, I suppose. I suppose there's a few different aspects. There's one, one is like from a general business sense, like time delegation. Like when you have kids, like when, when people that don't have kids say they have no time, I'm like, wait till you have kids. I know people that have got five plus kids, some with more, it's like they have no time. And they run a business or they're like in senior leadership. It's like, how the heck do you do that? So yeah, I think that's one like superpower you get. And the other is the ability to be present with your kids, which is something I'm always working on. That's, that's probably the downside to being a founder of a business or an agency or whatever it is, or a SaaS is because you can't switch off. It's that, that, that's when it gets to your detriment. So you need to have times like, In my case, where I'll go out with the family and just leave the phone in the car or wherever it is, just leave the phone in the bag and just make sure I'm enjoying the time with them. So I suppose two different angles to it.
Jolie Shapiro31:51.06
I love that. That's awesome. Is there a moment when you're when one of your kids probably not the younger one, but maybe the I think you said son daughter. The son Yeah. Is there a moment where your son's question or comment made you completely rethink how you show up at work?
Sam Dunning32:05.058
Yep, son, yeah. and I'm to think to be fair. I'm sure there has been. I'm sure there has been. I think, I don't know if there's one particular moment. I think it was my dad always said something that stuck with me. It's when he always said, he's always said, you have kids, everything changes, but for the better. it's something that I never really believed it. But then when you have kids, that's when you kind of see it. because you, I realized that beforehand in my, my case, I was quite a lot more selfish than I guess I am now. And there's still, still a lot I could certainly work on, be it family life or be it business. But I think that's, that's one thing, I suppose, not one specific moment, but generally speaking, because when actually they, I'm fortunate that my wife does a lot of the hard work and I just take over a bit in the morning and sometimes when she needs to do stuff in the daytime and in the evenings, but so she's doing all the hard stuff. I'm just helping in between. But I think the fact that when you have to dedicate yourself a lot more to these young kids that need your help, just changes almost, almost every way you approach life in general.
Jolie Shapiro33:42.752
That's a really good point. I don't have kids, I have puppies. They really are. Mine is currently passed out on my bed. Yeah, yeah, they're awesome. Some people have told me that they're like kids and people told me they're nothing like kids. So I guess I'll find out.
Sam Dunning33:49.512
Yeah, we've got pups. Pups are awesome. They're great fun. I think there's definitely similarities, especially with the dog, right? Because they're so loyal and obviously they just, they seem to be able to read the room. They'd be able to react to different people, like really, I think they have a good grasp on personalities and how people are.
Jolie Shapiro34:24.916
for sure, my dog, her name's Ellie, she picked out my now husband. Yeah apparently, yeah I was dating like maybe one or two guys at the time and the moment I knew was when she was in her kennel because she was really young, she was like two, three months and he was my boy, excuse me, I was just dating him at the time, couple dates in.
Sam Dunning34:32.625
there you go. And they're also matchmakers.
Jolie Shapiro34:54.654
And he came my apartment and I had ice cream. She comes out of the kennel, goes right to him. And I'm like, all right, I guess this is the guy. Because if you're not going for the pup cup and you're going for this guy I'm dating, mean, you have a good sense, Yeah, yeah, it was nice. Great.
Sam Dunning35:04.44
There you go. V. Heh heh. That's pretty cool. That's a nice story.
Jolie Shapiro35:24.268
Okay, so let's see if I think we are going to switch over a little bit. Give me one sec. Give me one second. Okay, that's a good one. Yeah, yeah, she's a trip. Just want to touch on culture a little bit. What's a subtle form of leadership, humiliation that most people miss, but you seem cause real harm?
Sam Dunning36:01.538
Leadership humiliation, did you say? Okay. What have I seen? I've never worked in, I've always worked in fairly small businesses like startups, growing agencies, that kind of stuff. I think it's usually when something gets said behind your back to another colleague and then it comes out, but it can work for the better. I'll give you one example. One thing that I always think of is one of the old guys I used to work with actually told me that the other guy said, why this was. This is probably six or so years, five or six years ago. Like why Sam started a podcast? It's an absolute waste of time, absolute waste of resource money. Why is he doing it? And brings me back right to the start, like with the chip on my shoulder. This was in 2020. So I started right at the peak of the pandemic, mainly because I was bored. I've always been into media. When I was younger, I wanted to be a radio presenter. So it all kind of came into one and I wanted to learn from cool and smart people. And that just made me want to do it more. So I like, I'm gonna do it to prove him wrong more than anything now. But yeah, that's kind of one thing I suppose that comes to mind. Yeah, I'm sure there's a bunch of others like calling people out in groups, whether that's, I don't know, in a group Slack chat or something like that, like calling a mistake rather than messaging them or giving them a call personally, just to say like. just to make it one-to-one rather than one-to-money so they don't feel kind of caught out, I suppose, is another example.
Jolie Shapiro37:46.6
Yeah, definitely. I think what I resonate with the most is when someone tells me I can't do something, I work that much harder to prove them wrong.
Sam Dunning37:59.982
It's weird, isn't it?
Jolie Shapiro38:01.596
I'm a giant. I am a giant pain in the ass. Which is a blessing and a curse.
Sam Dunning38:08.308
Mmm. Yeah, I think it's good reverse psychology. For better or worse, it definitely works.
Jolie Shapiro38:13.1
you Oh yeah, it's great. It's like, I'm gonna prove you wrong. Like, F you, man. Like, I was told I couldn't sing. I was told I couldn't write. You know, just insert, you can't this. And it's like, I'm gonna join a band. I'm gonna write a book. mean, you know, like, not, didn't write a book. But you know, just in general, like someone tells you, can't, you have that.
Sam Dunning38:19.822
Yeah, exactly.
Jolie Shapiro38:44.534
I don't know if it's rebellion or it's just a human quality or I don't know, but it's interesting.
Sam Dunning38:53.292
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a big thing in my mindset, I think. Seems to help though. There we go.
Jolie Shapiro38:59.722
Yeah. for sure. mean, look at look at what you've done. Someone told you you couldn't do a podcast. You're 400 ish episodes in and I mean, there you go.
Sam Dunning39:11.458
Getting there. Getting there, I guess.
Jolie Shapiro39:16.243
Cool. So let's see if there is. So we're at 39 minutes. Let me see. One sec. want to see if I can pick out. Some of these are really funny. OK. So I want to end with kind of a wacky one. We are a mental health podcast. What's one totally non-business thing, like a weird hobby song routine that keeps you mentally sharp as a revenue leader?
Sam Dunning39:57.464
few things I suppose. Main one for me is fitness. So I go to the gym a fair bit, a few times a week. Would normally play football, but I've done my knee recently, so that's out of action. So yeah, that. Like a manager, football or soccer team, you folks call it in the US. So I manage a six a side soccer team. I mess around with that. I'm usually playing football, soccer a couple of days a week. And yeah, I go to the gym. three, four days each week, walk the dog, that kind of stuff, just where you can, like I say, get a bit of a reset, think of something usually outside of work. And it's very cliche, but physically, if I feel like I've done a bit of work physically each day, like if I don't, if I don't do something physical each day, I'm in a very bad mood come the end of the day. I'm, yeah, not good to be around. So I'll just be, I'll be more annoyed at myself. That's the main thing. I'll be annoyed at myself that I didn't do the work. So I'll like, I should have gone to the gym. That was a waste of time. Even if I've done good stuff at work, I'll be annoyed. So it's not necessarily that healthy from that set, but it does seem to help me out generally speaking. I think that's quite a common one.
Jolie Shapiro41:14.252
Oh, for sure. I if I a couple things. So if I work out I'm not only in a better mood, but I have a better day, like you mentioned. I'm also nicer and more upbeat and more positive. And I also, it also kicks off my entire day, like the entire routine. I'm like, all right, let's go. Like let's, let's kick ass. Let's do this. And I mean, you obviously have the endorphins, but I think when we have such a powerful start to our day, whatever, whatever it may be, it really sets a tone for everything else.
Sam Dunning41:54.798
Yeah, yeah, I think it's, and it doesn't have to be that right. Everyone has their own thing, whether that's going for a walk or jog or something completely different. It doesn't have to be fitness related, but that's mine personally. And it seems to do the trick. I suppose it's a mix of the physical and the mental and the think about other stuff for an hour or so, whatever it is. And then. get back to it. It works well. It's weird how sometimes problems seem so bad when you're staring at a screen. And then if you can get away for an hour or so, it does seem to help quite a lot.
Jolie Shapiro42:37.164
Oh yeah, just breaking the monotony of staring at a screen and you go on a walk, even 10, 15 minutes and it's like, oh wait, oh, I got it. Oh, I finally got it, thank you. And then you go back, you're like, oh, that was the problem. It seems so hard when you're staring at the screen, when you just get outside and look at a tree, you come back and you're like, oh wait, that makes sense. Yeah, and I think there are people... I mean, everyone has a different outlet. Like some people write, some people read, some people stare off into the sunset. everyone has a different release for sure. Well, this was great. I know you're all over LinkedIn, but we'd love to hear if there's anything you're working on or want to talk about in the podcast or if people have questions.
Sam Dunning43:16.642
Yeah, exactly, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate having me on. So I suppose the main, main three for me, LinkedIn mainly rambling about what's working at the moment in SEO and B2B marketing to drive pipeline. And then the other one is the breaking B2B podcast where we basically interview the SAS or B2B marketing leaders. And we talk about what's actually driving growth at that company today, or I'll do a solo episode on. either SEO, a weird case study or experiment that I'm running around B2B marketing. Or if you want to check our website, it's breakingb2b.com.
Jolie Shapiro44:10.205
Awesome. Thank you so much, Sam. Really, really appreciate it.
Sam Dunning44:14.272
I appreciate having me on. Thanks for the chat.