Jolie Shapiro00:01.58
Welcome to Revenue Mind, a podcast where revenue leaders talk about all things mental health. I'm Julie, your host, and with this is Natalie. Welcome, Natalie.
Natalie Marcotullio00:09.548
Hey, thanks so much for having me.
Jolie Shapiro00:11.266
Yeah, of course. So before we dive in, what makes you, you?
Natalie Marcotullio00:16.452
wow. There's so many different directions to go with that question. I think, you know, I was on a podcast recently where funny enough, I was talking about like my parents and the different qualities I got from each of them that led into marketing. So I'm going to say like the maybe very scientific answer. If I do feel like I'm very much part equal parts of my parents. my mom was a kindergarten teacher, so I feel like I got a lot of like customer empathy, understanding people, communication skills from her. My dad worked, he's like the friendliest guy, and worked in business for a long time. So feel like I got a lot of my like prioritization, leadership communication skills from him. So very, very realistically, I am a combination of my parents.
Jolie Shapiro00:57.326
That's awesome. I'm a total combo, like right down the middle. How about outside of revenue? Like what do you think is like your core?
Natalie Marcotullio01:08.654
I'm really into I guess like personality core versus activity core. think personality core I just really am into like seeing friends enjoying the mo this sounds really dumb but like I'm really big and just like going for walks enjoying the moment like living in New York eating food I'm a big foodie and then like running and exercising I'm gonna talk about that a lot in this broadcast probably but at my core probably I will always be a little bit of an athlete and just like Love getting outside and kind of zoning out, listening to a podcast, listening to a book and running.
Jolie Shapiro01:41.228
Awesome, I did cross country in high school. Read, cross country. Cool.
Natalie Marcotullio01:44.558
I was both. So I ended up running the 800 because they said you can sprint and you can do long distance. And for anyone who doesn't know the 800 is the, and what I've heard from a lot of people, one of the absolute worst races.
Jolie Shapiro01:57.29
actually heard that too. And then I watched the Olympics and saw people do it. I'm like, no, no, no, not doing that. Yeah.
Natalie Marcotullio02:06.498
I mean, any race is awful, don't get me wrong, but anyone who I tell I ran the 800, they're like, that sucks. So it's universally known as being a pretty bad race.
Jolie Shapiro02:15.916
Yeah, but you know, you can say you did it and have rocking rights. So there you go. go ahead.
Natalie Marcotullio02:21.01
It... no, I was just gonna say, I definitely do that all the time. It helps me whenever I have to come across anything tough.
Jolie Shapiro02:29.038
Oh yeah, for sure. I did a sprint triathlon like 10 years ago and I still talk about it. I'm like, yeah, I was in the best shape of my life. I could swim a mile and bike 30 and run 10 and no more. But I still talk about it. It's like the glory days, oh my God, what's his name? Bruce Springsteen glory days. that's what we do. But that's awesome. You still run. That's great.
Natalie Marcotullio02:57.23
I'm always impressed though by people who do triathlons. I can't swim for the life of me. So that sounds, that sounds much harder.
Jolie Shapiro03:04.064
no, no, no, they're both equally as hard. So we're get onto the questions, you ready? Cool beans. All right, first one. Speaking of actually perfectly segues, usually I'm all over the place, but what's a race day moment you've had in revenue and how did your athletic mindset help?
Natalie Marcotullio03:09.454
Let's do it. Yeah, I think a lot of it, as I mentioned, honestly, throughout my entire career, I've reminded myself whenever I have to do something hard, I'm like, it's not an 800, which may sound a little simplistic, but those races were so hard, I'd be so stressed before and it was really like two minutes of let me put my body in as much pain as possible and stay mentally sharp and think about strategy. So it really helps and whether it's running or just like, I think everyone's done something pretty challenging in their life. having that reminder when I'm about to go into something hard. I think a good example is anytime I give like a live presentation, I haven't done that many, but I did one last year at the exit five drive conference. I was so nervous all the morning leading up to it. But I would just like keep reminding myself like you've survived so much harder. Like this is just going up and talking to people. You like to talk to people like this is this is like an honor that you get to do this. And I sort of do that before races too. I would remind myself of like This is fun. Like you are choosing to do this. No one is forcing you to go out and run this race. Like it's gonna be hard, but it's worth it. that almost that practice of just like pumping yourself up for something that is scary. I use all the time, not just for presentations externally, but like internal presentations as well.
Jolie Shapiro04:37.368
That's great. I like to say, well, I like to think. I probably don't say it out loud, but I'm not saving a life with what I'm doing. This is purely, I mean, I'm helping in my own way, but I'm not in a research lab curing XYZ disease. So we're choosing to be in B2B SAS and we're choosing. to really make an impact in our own way, but it's not life or death.
Natalie Marcotullio05:10.806
I often like to think about that too. Yeah, I made this choice at the end of the day, even if I go up on stage and nothing comes out of my mouth, that I entirely somehow mess up this speech, like it will be okay, more opportunities will come up. No, nothing truly bad will happen.
Jolie Shapiro05:25.666
Yeah, exactly. We think it's the end of the world and we screw up. I feel like that's, at least for me, that's a big thing. I used to be so hard on myself and I feel like it's all of us, know, like marketer sales, customer success. We're also type A. We are so hard on ourselves and it's probably the reason I started this podcast. It's like we're humans. more than this. You know, beyond myself. That's great.
Natalie Marcotullio05:57.55
I think it's funny too, because we're so tight-banged, hard on ourselves, but like every time I look back at some of my favorite memories or areas I've grown a bunch, and people say this all the time, this is not original thought, but it's usually in your failures. So it's funny how we don't remember, like we need to do bad to learn from it. Like we're not going to hit it 100 % of the time, but when that happens, we're like, no, I'm just a failure and this is all not going to work out versus in a few months I'll be like, oh, I'm so glad I failed. I learned so much from that.
Jolie Shapiro06:23.318
Yeah, for sure. Like, actually just, actually just posted today. So I have had, I've averaged about a year to job for the past 10 years and it wasn't by choice. Just a lot, a lot happened, but it's funny because someone messaged me and said, what did you learn? And I knew exactly how to get a job and now I can help others get a job. So now I have like this 15 minute job advice. on my account because I'm so good at it. I'm just not good at keeping them. So I can get one. I'm like really good at getting like getting multiple offers and all that. But keeping it is like, I'm just that's a whole thing. I think it's a there's we all have our superpowers. And I think we discover that learning from failure.
Natalie Marcotullio07:17.152
Yeah, it's funny how, yeah, like we don't think enough about how the, like it's so easy to be like, I'm so good at this, but we don't think about how I could learn what I'm good at from the things I'm not good at or doesn't stick.
Jolie Shapiro07:17.186
Would you agree? Is there anything that you've learned in particular from a failure or something that you've considered a failure?
Natalie Marcotullio07:34.28
I my biggest failures are often, I think the biggest thing is it's funny, you've mentioned how like so many revenue people are really type A, and I think it's because I have a lot of like really type A friends, so maybe it's just a scale, but I actually don't consider myself naturally type A, but so many people who meet me will be like, you're so organized, like you must have been that. The best quote I remember someone saying like you must have been that kid in high school who had like color coded binders. I was like, no, no, I had like doodles all over my binders and they were falling apart. But because I wasn't naturally organized, I've like really overcompensated. And I can't think of a specific time where I failed, but probably just like not been prepared for a meeting or missed a meeting, things like that, it's like, I don't want that to happen. So because I know it's not in my nature, I will Like every single day, I have a reminder within the day to prep for the next day. I always have my calendar blocked off. Like I think a lot of times what we're not good at, you can also like overcompensate with and then learn how to become good at it, even if it's not your natural tendency.
Jolie Shapiro08:35.852
Yeah, I totally agree with that because I guess honestly, I think you taught me something that I totally made and that's my dog. Hold on one second. She wants to get out. She's like, one sec. Yeah, I probably should have her in the show at one point.
Natalie Marcotullio08:46.486
No worries. She just wants to be in the show. You
Jolie Shapiro09:03.234
I think you had just finished. okay, so I'll go. What was I gonna say? This is my ASG. yeah, thank you. Yeah, you definitely, it's funny, I ask a lot of questions, but you definitely taught me something with this. Wait, shit, wait, I forgot what you said. God damn it. Hold on. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Natalie Marcotullio09:09.238
You said I taught you something? I was talking about like how I wasn't naturally organized and learned to become organized. You're welcome. I've been there before so many times.
Jolie Shapiro09:32.174
Thank you so much. Just thank God for Descript. I say this literally every episode. I'm like, thank you for Descript. Wait, I said Descript. Exactly. So yes, you definitely taught me something right now. I think I made an assumption that most revenue leaders are Taipei when actually I've actually gotten recommendations from those same revenue leaders about tools that they use to actually keep them on track because they naturally don't.
Natalie Marcotullio09:39.48
The script sponsors broadcast.
Jolie Shapiro10:02.582
So we all make these assumptions. It's interesting, right? We always make these assumptions about people when in reality, everyone is different. So thank you. I appreciate that.
Natalie Marcotullio10:14.144
Yeah, and I just think the last thing I'd add to that is I think we make these assumptions about like the kind of perfect picture person that we see. And I try to be kind of honest about like successes and failures I've had. But, you know, most people aren't seeing me my day to day when I'm like sprinting between Zoom meetings, trying to like grab something really quick out the fridge that's like not made and maybe like a week old or like, you know, you don't see those moments of just like being silly or goofy or like not as put together. So think that's also a good reminder. It's so easy to look at someone and like, they have it so together. usually I'm not showing the not together part of my life on camera.
Jolie Shapiro10:48.75
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I've actually had an AI photo for like the longest time. And I looked, I looked, I don't know, was like 25 pounds lighter and my face was perfect and it was perfect lighting. And I'm like, this is, and I have a post about it, but my brother was like, this is bullshit. Like this is, you look. like a robot, like you look like an alien that would, or that was like, that came from planet Venus. So, so I changed it. And honestly, I feel so much better because you, especially, I feel like, especially as women, we have, we're hesitant to be authentic, we're hesitant to show what we really look like or what we really want to say or, and it's so nice, honestly, to have this off record. It's so nice to have a woman in has literally 15 out of 18 of the guests are yeah yeah so thank you yeah no no I'm really it's no I didn't grab you because you're a woman because yeah no but it's really nice
Natalie Marcotullio11:41.474
wow. Happy to have me born the way I was. No, no, no. But I totally get it. Like, I've done the same thing where you like have guests on and you just don't even think about it. You just like invite people who you see and know would be good speakers. It's so subconscious. And then eventually you're like, my gosh, how did that even happen? I've done the same thing.
Jolie Shapiro12:01.752
Hmm Oh good, I feel better. Yeah. Cause I'm like, how did I end up with 15 guys?
Natalie Marcotullio12:12.78
Yeah. And I mean, I think the reality is a lot men are a lot more outspoken on these flow of platforms. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro12:16.48
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's interesting because they're all talking about mental health, which is you wouldn't it's like you have that men don't cry. But then they're all opening up about mental health and revenue leadership. So it's actually, I think it's pretty cool. But anyways, okay. Where were we? We were at you added your thing. That was a good segue.
Natalie Marcotullio12:24.608
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro12:40.256
I always say, so we're going to pivot a little bit. But I don't know how to pivot. Let's see if you can. So gonna just talk about revenue for a second and I'll re-record my intros because they're terrible. So next question, can you share a time when you told your boss routine no and how it changed a dynamic?
Natalie Marcotullio13:13.098
Yeah, I think something I've honestly all like going back to being really stressed out before having to do something scary. I think communication can also be sort of similar. So again, like grateful I practice how to be in stressful situations, even if it wasn't related directly to saying no. But because of all that, I like I've learned no, actually, I'm gonna start this over. Where the spirit of starting over, I was trying to tie it back, but it didn't tie back well to that. I was gonna tie it back to Something else I said, I'll just answer the question. Yeah, so honestly, when I think about like revenue, mental health, all that, saying no is like one of the most important things that I usually do in my day to day job to help with that. And I honestly learned it just from saying, yes, you're not too much, like talking about mistakes we've made in the past. I definitely just got into the habit of being like, yes, I can do this and this. And at the beginning, it wasn't out of like a feeling like I needed to, like I was excited to try and learn different things. Like it was never usually someone pressuring me. It was more like I felt honestly grateful to try all these different opportunities and be at a startup and put on a lot of different hats. And I generally liked that about startups. But there comes to like a tipping point where it's just like one too many things. And it's not even the number of things you have to do in a day. It's the mental space of having to keep track of all those things that it just like sets you over the edge. So I eventually learned that doing way too many things, I wasn't gonna do any of well. And I just was like definitely burning myself out, losing my passion. So I've definitely learned like, okay, prioritize, say no when you can. And to your question of like a specific example, I really like to try to like, I have a few different methods. I have a whole framework of methodologies for saying no. I'll try to like condense it a little bit. But what I really like to do is one, not just say straight up no, but like swap it out. So a lot of times if your boss comes to you for like a really big idea that you're also excited about, I'll do a lot of times like, okay, this quarter I have this, this and this priority. But next quarter, you that sounds like a really good initiative. And because I really want to spend the proper time with it, I want to make sure that we execute it to the level that you're thinking. I think that might be better for like an April initiative. Or if it's something small, saying, no, an example I like to give a lot is like Google ads, like, Hey, why aren't we bidding on this keyword? feel like every marketer has gotten that. That's also when I really like to pull my data or past examples and just say, okay, well, you know, we tried bidding on that keyword and it didn't work or. again, could be prioritization and budget. Okay, we're like right now we're seeing that our top 10 keywords are bringing in like this many demos and are performing really well. Do we want to allocate some spend to take away from that? And it's okay if we do, but I just want you to be aware of the consequences. It's not just saying no, but it's sort of just practicing and planting in the mind of like, we can't just keep adding on. There's always going to be like trade-off for adding something in.
Jolie Shapiro16:04.566
I love that. See, it's funny because I've so I've experienced both I've experienced having too much on my plate. And then being pigeonholed into one thing. And that honestly the pigeonholing for for people like us. I mean, I'm just probably making an assumption right now. But for people like us, the people that like to think when you get stuck in such a mundane task, it just it kills me. So it's like it's that balance between you have enough to keep yourself stimulated but not overwhelmed versus having one thing to do doing it really well but being incredibly bored.
Natalie Marcotullio16:47.918
It would be so fascinating if someone put out a report of like, what is the number of things you can do and realistically like stay energized and excited, but not too overwhelmed. For me, I always try to do like two or three net new priorities a quarter. That usually works pretty well because I already obviously have my existing work and two or three, and those are like, you know, larger priority projects, campaigns. Any more than that, I find just like becomes overwhelming and something my existing work might fall. But I'd love if, I don't know, some psychologist found that magic number.
Jolie Shapiro17:18.702
You gave me a project, thank you. I'm not an LCSW, but I know some people. Awesome. I will hand deliver that or hand, I will DM that to you when it's ready.
Natalie Marcotullio17:20.898
Perfect. Alright. for affecting a 20 page report, single space.
Jolie Shapiro17:35.438
what's his, he did this. was his name? Not Kyle Lacy. It was someone, it was one of the big voices on LinkedIn. did like, used ChatGBT Pro to do like a 50 page research paper. It was crazy what it came up with. It was like the foundations of B2B marketing. I forget what it was, but it was like 50 pages, single spaced. I'm like, this is scary.
Natalie Marcotullio17:56.546
love it.
Jolie Shapiro18:05.282
that AI can do this.
Natalie Marcotullio18:07.5
That would take someone like months if not years to do in the past. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro18:11.374
Yep. Yeah. AIs really changed the world. Speaking of, let's see if there's a set. Hopefully I can do this. I have to read. It's funny with Jonathan Bland. I had to like re-record all my intros because like I they were so shitty that I had to. But it has to be a great episode.
Natalie Marcotullio18:31.082
I'm also impressed that you rerecord I probably just think yeah, it's part of the podcast.
Jolie Shapiro18:35.806
well, that's my dose of perfectionism for you. It takes two seconds to for me. But I like that. See, it's funny. when I first entered my first interview, I was so nervous. And I was such a robot. And then it's become more and more like a conversation. I think that's why I mess up so much because I go from I go like this.
Natalie Marcotullio18:44.056
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro19:01.454
with the person and then I have to, I'm like, wait, I have to focus on the questions I'm actually asking. So that's just, that's just a little bit about me. But anyways, here we go. So we were talking about, we went all over the place, but you just gave me a good answer about saying no, thank you. Speaking of saying no, what's the hardest boundary you've set at work and how did you enforce it? And did you face pushback?
Natalie Marcotullio19:17.71
for the saying no. Yeah, I sort of have a personal and like professional answer for this one. Professionally, the hardest boundary I've set is I have this concept for all of our marketing. I call it like our marketing framework and it's the concept of unique and valuable. And I've talked about this before. So if anyone follows my content, first of all, thank you. But second of all, you might've heard it before. So sorry if it's a repeat, but essentially it's just the idea that we're not going to just do something because a competitor does it. We're not just going to copy what everyone else is doing. And then all of our marketing material should ultimately help our audience and add something to their day to day, to their job, to their profession. It shouldn't just be about us. And so there's not like one time where I set that hard boundary, but every single time a new idea campaign is brought up, I run it through this unique and valuable framework. And there have been a few times where we've seen, you know, someone else in the industry do something cool or competitor. I've had to. explain to my CEO and explain to the team, like this probably would be successful. It probably would bring in leads and be a good campaign for us. However, it does not fall into the unique and valuable framework. So we are not going to do it. And for the most part now everyone's on board, like even as you know, I'm ultimately responsible for pipeline. It is sometimes stressful to say no to things that probably would be successful short-term because I know long-term it's so important we keep this high standard for our marketing.
Jolie Shapiro20:52.962
and then you mention you have a personal anecdote.
Natalie Marcotullio20:55.274
Yes, I went on about the professional one. I'd say personally, I mentioned running before, like I'm someone who needs to exercise most days more for my mental health. If that's not you, that's absolutely fine. It's not like, I think sometimes there's a shame if exercise isn't how you release. Like that's just how I personally process things and how I feel better. So I think my personal one is just like most days I need to work out and I'll try to tell the team like, If I'm off for a little bit, like, okay, I'm going to a kickboxing class or I'm running this morning. Like I try to talk about it just to make it clear. Like it's okay too, if you need to go work out or have time to do your thing where you release. Like I also tell my team, like, I don't really care when you work out or when you work. I mean, obviously you have to like be generally responsive, but you know, if you want to go for a midday run, I don't really care if you want to put a block in your calendar.
Jolie Shapiro21:50.146
Yeah, I was reading I was talking to been quite a few podcasts at this point, which has been a lot of fun. So I'm forgetting I'm forgetting who said what. But one of them said one of the podcast guests said that he he has I think it was Mark Huber. Yeah, so he has like a therapy block on his calendar, but it's open. I think it was either her or someone else. But promoting that you're taking care of yourself as a leader. I think that's really great that you're doing that. I've talked to, just over the years, like when I was living in New York, actually, I was friends with a lot of people in finance. And it's just button seats. You just have to accumulate the hours just because. I feel like there's this, at least in BWSAS, I feel like there's a bit of a movement. for leaders to have to have more of a transparent calendar to be like hey it's okay to have therapy or gym or whatever I'm stepping out. Pause your notification on Slack. What's your take on that?
Natalie Marcotullio23:04.334
think it's part of like the pros and cons of remote work too. Like there are definitely some cons of remote work. Like you don't get to see each other in person. Obviously I think sometimes hours can, if you know if they're flexible and the fact that you can take off in the middle of day, that also means you might be working earlier, working later. So I see it as if you want to have a flexible remote culture and you don't need to be in the office from nine to five every day. That's one of the perks. I don't like, I've definitely been trying to be pretty open of like, this is my calendar. You know, I also tell my team, like, again, I like to work earlier in the morning. I like to log off and take a walk around like five and six and like, go make dinner. Like, I don't, again, I don't really care when you work, like work whenever the energy levels work for you. But also sometimes I do just like miss being in the office and getting, know, knowing everyone's there at the same time. So I think it's just like the reality of the remote work and understanding that is one of the pros to it.
Jolie Shapiro23:56.398
Definitely, I'm probably best from like, well, I wake up at five, do spin, and then at six, and then I'm like really solid from like eight to 12. Ooh, sorry, one sec. I have two dogs. One of them's. I don't know why I'm barking. be right back.
Natalie Marcotullio24:29.677
No worries.
Jolie Shapiro24:36.888
Sorry, I marking clips for accident. don't know why. One second.
Natalie Marcotullio24:39.543
No.
Jolie Shapiro25:12.632
That's the thing about the suburbs, you get solicitors. But she's a she's a sweet too. So that's, that's Ellie, she does not forget everything that she has autoimmune disease for her eyes, or like attacks her eyes. So if we caught it early, but she actually needs those. Because the sunlight aggravates your eyes. And people like, those are those are so cool. Your dog is so cool. Like,
Natalie Marcotullio25:35.853
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro25:42.574
Thanks. Yeah, yeah, I don't I don't I'm like, I'm too lazy to I'm like to, I'm just want to continue my walks. I don't say that. No, like, thanks, Lisha gets comments. So we're worried before my dogs started. You were talking about Oh, here we go hardest boundary set. And we talked about calendars. Okay, so that segues. Great. Um, cool. So that actually brings me to my next question. If you could keep
Natalie Marcotullio25:44.238
Thanks, and also as medically necessary, but thank you.
Jolie Shapiro26:12.542
only one responsibility for a day, which would it be and why?
Natalie Marcotullio26:17.39
So taking this from like a professional standpoint, I think this is just really top of mind for me. So I don't know if this would just be it, but just this week, um, I've been doing it all of 2025, but kind of officially announced that I'm taking on more product marketing work at Novatic. And so I'm honestly just like really excited about the new thing. I think to your point before, like, I like doing a lot of different things and new challenges. So for now, like that's the thing that I'd want to keep. and take on because it is the newest versus I like a lot of the other work I've done too. It's just, it gets a little less interesting when it becomes more repetitive.
Jolie Shapiro26:51.822
Yeah, that's great. What was your, I know you mentioned it, you touched on it a bit in your post, but for the listeners, what was your thought process behind the transition?
Natalie Marcotullio27:03.214
Say there are two different thought processes. One was from the company perspective and one was my own. My own, I sort of just explained, like I've been doing DemandGen, thought leadership brand for a while. At this point last year, the big initiative was getting our freemium motion off the ground. And now Raman on my team has been leading that and doing a tremendous drop on that. So he runs the day to day that I still there to like supervise and help out. But when we were thinking about my role in 2025, I definitely ready was like. The big challenge of 2024 was the freemium motion. was definitely ready for sort of a new challenge. And from a company perspective, we, as we gotten bigger, the focus was shifting away from, okay, we have to educate the market on what interactive demos is and build brand awareness and familiar with Novatic. We're by no means, you know, have we fully done that, but we've gotten a lot further. Now a lot more of the focus is, you know, how do we differ from all the other options out there? Or how do we make sure that prospects and customers know about all the different features we're launching? Cause it just feels like as I'm talking to so many product marketers right now, there are so many features being launched constantly. So how do we keep that information up to date and succinct? So it was sort of a shift of like, I was ready to take on a new challenge and then where the business priorities were.
Jolie Shapiro28:16.344
That sounds like a mash made in heaven.
Natalie Marcotullio28:18.382
It's funny because it wasn't originally, we weren't sure what we were going to do. We were maybe originally going to hire for the role. It sort of just worked out as we talked about more. It's like, wait, I know the product really well. I already use it basically every day. I know the market really well. And then I remember having one of those conversations, like, wait, should I just do this? And it sort of, to your point, just worked out perfectly.
Jolie Shapiro28:39.448
That's so cool. I love when the stars align. It's just, because there are so many moments where they don't. So when they do, we all welcome them. So you mentioned that you're very data driven, which I love. I'm a data freak. I'll rephrase that. I'm a data nerd. So when campaign results shake your confidence, how do you stay grounded?
Natalie Marcotullio29:06.51
think we sort of what we're talking about the very beginning of this podcast, like you're going to learn from those failures too. Well, I mean, first of all, to be honest, like when it happens, I'm definitely frustrated. I'm not going to pretend like I see a bad result. I'm just like, I'm Zen. This is okay. And I think that's okay to take a moment to be a little frustrated by it or be annoyed. I feel like every time I try to dismiss that it just like comes back around. So first of all, I will be maybe a little annoyed or upset. I don't, I try not to like take it out on anyone. That's again, why I like go for a run or go for a walk and just like take a break from it. Then once I've had a little bit of time away, I'll say that's when I usually start thinking about like, okay, why did this happen? And usually I already know, like usually you're annoyed at yourself because you know you rushed something or you didn't spend enough time getting feedback early on. Like you're usually annoyed when the campaign doesn't go well because there were certain things that you kind of skip by or rush by. So honestly, a lot of that's off still like taking ownership and accountability for it and be like, yeah, I didn't do those things for next campaign. I'm going to make sure to do those things.
Jolie Shapiro30:05.838
Yeah, for sure. One of my, think I was commenting on someone's post today. I'd like to say one of my biggest strengths is learning from my mistakes and to not repeat it again. But it's so hard when you're moving at the speed of light at any company. could be working for an agency or you know, VATIC or another startup. because you have to move so quickly. And it's like, how do you, my fiance always says, how do you slow down and speed up? And that he's really good at it. I'm a lot less methodical, but do you have any tips or tricks for the listeners kind of along those lines?
Natalie Marcotullio30:36.43
Mm-hmm. big fan of doing something in a very like small experimental way first. So any way that you can experiment it with honestly, if you do mess up a little bit or like it's not the most clean or polished. I think the best example of this I mentioned that we introduced a freemium motion last year, we spent like six months behind the scenes testing it before we promoted it. So and the very early stages we got really helpful but critiquing feedback being like this is bad. This is confusing. So I don't know. I think at startups sometimes it can be a little hard to move entirely slow and not show any progress. So I'm a big fan of like, figure out how you can do like the basic MVP, get some feedback, make it clear that like, this is an MVP, this is beta. And so you're showing that there is progress. Like you're not just delaying that because generally founders like to see progress, but also you're not doing this big splashy campaign where you're like, hey everyone, we have this thing. And you know, maybe there are some things that need a little bit more polish on it.
Jolie Shapiro31:49.422
I love that. I work in agency. I might have mentioned that. So we started, we have this client and we started with these fully fledged 50 page decks. And we did like three iterations of them. And these are, cause it just wasn't hitting the mark. And ultimately we ended up going to Excel. and Word docs and Figma and it has worked out beautifully. Sometimes you just, they say, know, content is king and I think it's so true. It doesn't, you can have a fully fledged product or excuse me, let me redo that. Not the content is king is not what I wanted to say. I think MVP is. so important having a proof of concept. I love that. And I think we all want to rush to the finish line. But in reality, if you don't do it right, what's the point?
Natalie Marcotullio32:54.466
And I think too, honestly, lot of it isn't that individuals don't want an MVP. I think in marketing, we waste a lot of time having to like convince people that our ideas are good ideas or convince the board that we should be investing in this thing. And so that's why I'm also just a big fan of MVP. It eliminates the time wasted everyone arguing about an idea. Cause I've definitely been at companies where it's just like. so much time is spent debating an idea. like, hey, we could have spent this week going back and forth, just like testing out in a small way and then figuring it out. Cause at the end of the day, like, especially to start up, no one knows. We can all have the data. We can all have our insights. We can all have our experience and all of our gut feels. But like I've been wrong about plenty of things. I was pretty passionate about. I've been right about, or yeah, right about things that I wasn't really expecting to be right about. So I'm just like, let's put something out there and let our audience tell us. Cause they're the only ones who are going to know if this is going to work or not.
Jolie Shapiro33:44.032
It sounds like you're, I mean, the vibe I'm getting is that you're a big lifelong learner. Is that a good assessment?
Natalie Marcotullio33:52.32
Yeah, I think a part of it is a big lifelong learner and just like, I've just seen enough times that like you think you know things and you don't. Like, I think I've just my own ego, you know, I feel very lucky I've had a lot of experiences, but I don't have enough of an ego to believe I really know anything. And I'd rather get those insights directly from the people I'm like talking to or our audience then. be convinced I will always know the answer. Because even just like everything, even if I know the answer at one point, like I started my career in SEO, I knew SEO at one point, SEO is so different than when I first knew it. So like, it's kind of a fallacy to think that I could ever stop learning.
Jolie Shapiro34:32.192
for sure. The corny thing. But it's so true that you never want to be the smartest person in the room. I mean everyone, I've heard it so many times but I live by it. I always want to surround myself with people smarter than me because that's that's how you learn.
Natalie Marcotullio34:50.84
And I think everyone's also smarter than someone in something. Like everyone has their area of expertise. You can learn something from everyone too. So just being, also being open to that. Like it's so easy to be like, and I sometimes I'm guilty. I'll meet someone and be like, I've been in this industry for a while. Like I can't learn anything. And then they have a new perspective or again, something that very, very niche, maybe they're an expert on.
Jolie Shapiro35:10.434
Yeah, I think a really great part about startups, or not startups, let me redo that. I think a really great part about hiring people different from you is that they do bring that perspective. And even if you maybe butt heads in the beginning, you come to the middle ground, which sometimes is the best place to be.
Natalie Marcotullio35:34.816
Yeah, and I think always you learn something from seeing something from someone else's perspective or how they approach a problem. I'll go in a little bit of a tangent. I'll try not to take us too long. But one thing I've been obsessed with recently, and I have all of my new hires read it, so it's very top of mind for me right now, is there's this book called The Four Tendencies, and it's all about what motivates you. OK, you're nodding like you've read it, and I'm really excited to talk about it now. But. On my team, we're all different tendencies, so we all get motivated by different things. And it really helps because we'll approach problems or situations a little differently.
Jolie Shapiro36:10.894
for sure, I actually haven't read it, it has been on my list forever. But what I love about the concept is that it's like that your core values, like what truly motivates you. And that lens brings so much perspective to how you implement it and what you do. So I have to read it. I got recommended it back when I was at Sixth Sense and that was like three years ago. So it's still on my list. But thank you for the reminder.
Natalie Marcotullio36:44.422
I highly, highly recommend it to anyone listening. The last thing I'll say is I think it just does a really good job talking before about like our failures being our strengths. It makes you recognize that like you're just, you're naturally motivated by some forms and some things don't. Like there's one tendency that's all about external motivation. So they're naturally motivated when they're in like group gym classes. Like they like being around people. They'll have a harder time just like going for a run by themselves. So rather than beating yourself up and being like, I'm so lazy. You can just be like, I'm motivated by going to a class. I'll go to a class versus I know for myself, I'm more internal. I like running, so I'll just go do it.
Jolie Shapiro37:21.664
Yeah, for sure. Laughing because of what I'm about to say. No, for me, I have to literally buy the class in advance. And there's a lot of people that do this. So I'll sign up for, let's say, five classes in advance. And if you don't go, they charge you a certain amount. So it's sad that money is my motivator. It's not really my motivator. But you don't you know, you don't want to you don't want to get charged for missing something. So I have a lot of friends that do it too, like for I think it's F45 and Orange Surrey and all those classes.
Natalie Marcotullio37:56.024
I've heard plenty of who do that. And also like maybe you just need that little extra like, okay, there is a reason or there's a real incentive behind it, not just like, if I miss it, I'll just miss it.
Jolie Shapiro38:05.87
Yeah, there's a consequence. I think it's more about the consequences versus like your account draining. Because like $15 at the end of the day, not a big deal, but that adds up. Definitely adds up. Awesome. So we talked a little bit about burnout, but just to your personal burnout red flags. When you remember phrases.
Natalie Marcotullio38:11.159
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro38:29.9
We talked a little bit about burnout, just to expand on it. What are your personal burnout red flags and how do you reset from those?
Natalie Marcotullio38:37.708
The biggest thing I'll notice is that people propose new tasks. And before I talked about, I'm pretty good at saying no. I almost default to no. Like when, and I've noticed this with a lot of other people burn out too. It's when you start feeling burnt out, you'll find a reason not to do so many different things. Or the idea of one new thing just seems like so overwhelming and stressful. Very much like. nothing seems kind of exciting and new. Like on the flip side, that's when know I'm not burnt out when I new tasks seem exciting and I get creative around them. But when it's just like, okay, another thing and actually maybe we shouldn't do that right now because of XYZ reasons, but it might not really be a good reason. That's when I can tell. As far as how do I react, I'm definitely big into like step away when you can or try to reprioritize often a lot of times, honestly, just like a good night's sleep. fix a lot of burnout for me. I'm someone who likes to sleep and there'll be so many times when I'll be like, I can't physically do everything I need to do in a day. And sometimes you do need to stay up later and just get it done. But the amount of times I'll just be like, you know what? I'll just do it in the morning. I'll wake up a little earlier and I'm in a better head space in the morning and get it done twice as fast. Like eight out 10 times that can solve it.
Jolie Shapiro39:48.654
Sleep is key. I was asking one of the podcast guests just offline on a DM, I was like, oh, how are you doing? He said, I have finally gotten a good night's sleep and it has made everything better. I think we don't realize, or at least I don't wanna speak for everyone, a lot of us don't realize how important sleep is until we don't have it. It's kind of like breathing like when you stop breathing you notice but otherwise it's the involuntary action when you're you know when you're sleeping you're you're great you feel energized but when you don't you're like wow I I need this
Natalie Marcotullio40:31.63
And I just move so much slower. And I do recognize that I feel very lucky that I can sleep. I, you know, I have coworkers, have young kids right now. And like, they would love to sleep, but they're getting woken up every night. Or, you know, sometimes like some people can't, I'm luckily a naturally good sleeper. I understand that's not for everyone or not available to everyone. But I definitely notice I always be so much like less efficient and move slower. And so while like, it might seem tempting to stay up that extra hour to do the task. At the end of the day, I could do it the next day in 20 minutes, because I got a good night's sleep, that's probably gonna be more efficient.
Jolie Shapiro41:05.838
For sure, for me it actually affects my mood. Like if I don't get a good, and a lot of people I think, like it really, I'm just, I can be a little bit, maybe, how do I say this? me think about it. This is why I love to script, because you can like delete the long pauses and then you can think about what you actually wanna say. I'm like obsessing with it. Anyways, yeah. We were talking about, hold on. Sleep. Wait, you had a line. What was your last line?
Natalie Marcotullio41:37.934
Hmm. was just saying that taking like an hour to do a task, 20 minutes the next morning.
Jolie Shapiro41:44.43
Oh, sorry about mood. There we go. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think professionally, definitely. And then I can I can definitely have an attitude when I don't sleep. And I don't want to use a word that typically is associated with that podcast. But I can be I can be pretty, I'd be pretty curt. But then I take a nap and I'm all better. I'm like, I'm like, I it's funny, my puppy social. She's my version of a child. So she'll be really, really hyper. That's kind of how I am. Like I'll be super, super hyper. And then she crashes. And that's exactly what I do. And they say that you pick yourself. There's so many, we have so many similarities. It's scary. But I digress. This is a little bit of a pivot. I might have to redo the intro, but or the intro to this question is just gonna ask it. Okay. So in stress. kills creativity, what's your first move to get back on track?
Natalie Marcotullio42:46.892
I sort of just talked about it, but honestly, sleeping is usually number one. And then usually like stepping away from the computer. And I, this is nothing new, but like walking, running, just like getting away. just never have a super creative idea. Usually when I'm sitting in front of my computer and it's funny, cause even sometimes in the morning I've been trying better about like literally going like a 10 minute walk. And so often I'm stressed because I'm like, well, I said, I was gonna start at this time and now I'm starting 10 minutes later, which at the end of the day does not really matter. But. a lot of times on that walk, I'll think about work or like think about an upcoming campaign and then think of something more creative than if I just sat here. But it's so, it's also just sort of funny of like what we count as like work time. And even though it might be a sporadic, that's what I trying to go for, a sporadic thought versus very organized written down in Ocean Doc. And it might be also shuffled in there with like, what's my grocery list for later today? I'm still accomplishing the task at hand.
Jolie Shapiro43:42.958
That's great. I just started using motion. So Evan, do you use recommended I think on LinkedIn? I'm like, oh my god, this is the best thing on the planet. have it's it's it's more honestly, it's probably more for people like me that that need more structure, like more help with structure. But both are great notion motion. I love how they rhyme to that's lot of fun. But motion replace my calendar. replace Notion and it's awesome so if you want to check it out feel free and it's great for teams. Yeah this isn't even a brand I'm not big enough to be a brand ambassador so this is like a free you know free shout out.
Natalie Marcotullio44:19.246
Good to know. Motion and Descript both should sponsor the podcast.
Jolie Shapiro44:30.062
Yeah, that's a good call. I'll... I'm good. Taking that out. So we have... Okay, let's see. this is a good one. So I'm just gonna ask it, so I'm lead up to it. So how do you show your team mental health matters even under pressure?
Natalie Marcotullio44:51.234
I think one is prioritization. Like if I see my team is really stressed, I said this so many times, but truly like, if they're really stressed about something, there's probably some things we can take off their plate. Like sometimes like we do have to push hard and there are big campaigns coming up and it is stressful, but what are those secondary things that like might not be as important? And sometimes just the act of telling them like, this doesn't need to be done right now. We're moving it to April. Like not even just like, get to it next week. It's like, this is not your priority this month is this, this task. Like it's not going to make or break this difference. We're moving it to a month away. Like you just need to get off their mental load. And sometimes they might even do it before April, but it's when someone's really stressed, a lot of times I feel like it's like, I just have too many things in my brain to even handle right now. So one, it's like, okay, write out all the things you're doing. Let's take away the things that aren't vital to the core task we're trying to handle. Move those, don't think about them anymore. And then I think trying to remind them, as we've talked about, like, you know, this, at the end of the day, we're very lucky. There is no true marketing emergency. Like if we need to reprioritize or push some things or move it around, we can do it. Or again, maybe launch with like a more MVP version, get feedback first. Like if it's not in the full polished state. And then I think also like when they're off, really reminding them the importance of taking off. Like if you're taking vacation, funny, I feel like sometimes with the remote world, it's like tempting to work always during vacations or not really take off, but reminding of like, Hey, remember when you went through that, like that really busy time and you push like that was awesome. Now you need to be a relaxed time. I think of working a lot. Like I think about how you think about training. Like you can't just always be pushing or you're going to injure yourself. You need to take rest and recover periods as well. And framing it in that way. Also sometimes people like don't want to do things for them, but framing in that way, it's not like. just because you're tired and need to sleep. It's like, no, actually for optimal performance when like we are going to have a busy time, I need you to rest right now.
Jolie Shapiro46:51.502
I love the intersection between the racing and performance and your natural... is it acclimation? No. Inclination? I don't know what the word is. I think it's inclination.
Natalie Marcotullio47:09.238
I inclination, I'm always so bad. I like always mess up these words or phrases.
Jolie Shapiro47:13.73
Yeah, like the big words that I try and use and I sometimes have to look it up. No, I love your natural affinity toward the athleticism and putting it into your work. That's really cool. I don't think that's something we've talked about before. So that's definitely a good perspective.
Natalie Marcotullio47:33.518
I think that you learn a lot from being coached and having a schedule like that. And I feel very grateful for it. And at the end of the day, a lot of it is applicable to like in anything. How can I get my optimal performance? I learned how to do it from an athletic standpoint, but I can take those learnings still from like a mental work standpoint.
Jolie Shapiro47:51.214
Yeah, for sure. And you mentioned something earlier that I wanted to comment on that I can move like up. Oh, yeah. There was the walking. Yeah, know as you're walking. No, thank you, though. I, yeah, come up with my best ideas. When I do. When I walk. I just to get away and I've talked with this so much talk about this. Just so many times there's so there's so many things that you you start to see the patterns of everyone just
Natalie Marcotullio47:56.699
vacation like text
Jolie Shapiro48:21.464
being at their computer all the time. And I mentioned this in another podcast, I came up with an entire strategy for a Fortune 500 client on a walk. And it's those kind of moments where like, what are we doing? What are we doing? So and then you were and then do you ever use voice notes? Like when you have an idea?
Natalie Marcotullio48:42.25
I don't. I should. I don't though. I just kind of let it like sit in my head and hope I remember it. Something has definitely bit me in the butt.
Jolie Shapiro48:51.7
Yeah, I don't either, but I used to do it when I was songwriting. When I had the melody and lyrics in my head, I, of course I'm gonna forget it. So I record it and then I write a whole song.
Natalie Marcotullio49:02.552
That's so cool. I'll do a lot like I'll slack myself an idea. So I don't remember that, but that's like so cool. You could just like be on a walk and write a whole song.
Jolie Shapiro49:11.284
thanks yeah recently it's been I'll leave my phone sometimes like for dinner date night etc and I'm like wait I have an idea Fiat say can you please text me this so that's yeah poor guy let's see okay cool we have it we're gonna last question all right cool So last question before we figure out where to find you, joking, we know where to find you. Years from now, what do you hope your team remembers about how you handle mental health?
Natalie Marcotullio49:48.014
I'm gonna keep going back to this, but if I had to think about my number one strength, I do really think it's prioritization and saying no. So I hope they just learn that that is a strength. That's not laziness, it's not being able to take on, it's not working hard. When I think about the number one reason of where I am or I am right now, it's prioritization above all else. So I hope that the team just remembers of it's such an important skill worth learning and that... It will help you in a business sense, but also will help you for the long run. Because you can not worry about prioritization, but it will be much harder in the long run to keep doing this, keeping motivated, keeping excited by it. Companies want it to work out. It's not just for you, it's also for them.
Jolie Shapiro50:33.752
Yeah, the concept of ruthless prioritization. I love that.
Natalie Marcotullio50:38.498
Which is funny because it doesn't sound very mental health related, but I promise it is. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro50:40.756
No, that is so true. Yeah, it doesn't sound like mental health at all. It sounds like radical candor. That same that same kind of phrase, but it's actually the epitome of mental health and revenue. All right, cool. So I know you're on LinkedIn, but for our listeners that maybe haven't interacted with you before, can we find you?
Natalie Marcotullio51:00.674
I mean, yeah, it's really mostly LinkedIn. But if you do want to talk about any of these concepts, I did also do a talk with this part I mentioned at the beginning of this podcast thing I was really nervous for. I did a talk at exit five drive. I believe they have on their podcast that recording where I talked about how to say no to your CEO. There I go into like the full framework of how I say no. So if that concept was interesting at all, I'd recommend checking that out.
Jolie Shapiro51:23.438
Cool. this off our card. I'll put in the show notes. Yeah, I'll put that in the, four. Oh my God. What did you call it? Four. Thank you. Thank you. My dog is here. we're gonna, yeah. She's like, mom, take me to walk. Oh, she's on the bed now. Yeah. I backed it back today, but I have, I have a time blocked out.
Natalie Marcotullio51:26.211
Perfect. for tendencies. timing. We just talked about the importance of walking, but she heard.
Jolie Shapiro51:50.422
So this was great. Thank you so much, Natalie. I think our listeners are going to get a ton of value out of this. So thank you so much again.
Natalie Marcotullio51:57.974
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me and thanks for doing this. I'm sure everyone, every single guest have told you how important it is, but I am, it's really nice to get to go on a podcast and talk about these things.