Jolie Shapiro00:02.012
Hey everyone, welcome to the Revenue Mine podcast. I'm Julie, your host, and with us is Warren. Welcome, Warren. How's it going?
Warren Zenna00:08.077
Hi, thanks for having me. Good. Really good. Appreciate it. Thanks for inviting me to be here.
Jolie Shapiro00:13.564
Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time. So this podcast as... Let me start that over, sorry. Okay, so this podcast is where we talk about mental health and revenue leadership. But I ended up kind of switching the format and tend to surprise people with this question. And we kind of riff off that. So it ends up bringing up some pretty...
Warren Zenna00:35.233
Okay, hit me.
Jolie Shapiro00:43.196
Cool insights. right. I don't know what's wrong with me today. I woke up at one in the morning. That might be why. This is why I have my editor. OK, cool. Let me just have that over. All right. So typically, we've been doing the standard format where we ask certain questions, but we've changed it.
Warren Zenna00:44.632
All right.
Jolie Shapiro01:10.524
to be more of a riff. So the question is, what makes you you?
Warren Zenna01:17.932
my parents.
Jolie Shapiro01:23.132
Full stop.
Warren Zenna01:24.481
Yeah, I mean, they made me.
Jolie Shapiro01:27.684
I like that. you wanna, dude that, mean, that, that makes a lot of sense. that, do you wanna expand on any personality traits or any sort of?
Warren Zenna01:28.459
It made me me. I I guess probably mostly genetic. I think, yeah, mean, there's some nurture, I'm sure, but, you know, I tend to think that if you're in an extreme environment, like if you're raised, if you're abused or, know, traumatic upbringing, or, know, maybe you were moved around a lot or you lived in some really weird culture, then nurture probably plays a bigger role. But if it's just like a neutral environment, which I grew up in, it's mostly genetic.
Jolie Shapiro01:49.165
That works for me.
Warren Zenna02:15.79
I mean, a lot of this stuff too is cultural. I'm Jewish. I'm from New York. That plays a role, but that's parents, right? There's economic factors, you know, and then there's mostly genetics. I mean, I don't know why the hell there's some good stuff. I was just born this way. So I didn't have any control over any of it, honestly.
Jolie Shapiro02:37.34
That's a really refreshing, honest answer. I'm actually Jewish and my grandmother and grandfather, or yeah, grandmother and grandfather were both born in Brooklyn.
Warren Zenna02:49.752
There you go. Yeah, my parents are all from Brooklyn. And my grandparents, everyone, the whole family. Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro02:52.433
nice. Yes, I know little bit about neuroticism.
Warren Zenna02:59.586
Yeah, don't we all?
Jolie Shapiro03:03.244
yeah, it's culture agnostic. It's definitely not a Jewish thing. OK, so that was a really refreshing, straightforward, direct answer. Loved it. We can talk about other stuff. So I'd love to hear your opinion on sales and burnout, specifically in the CRO community.
Warren Zenna03:14.03
Okay. Yeah, that's a good question. So CROs in particular. You know, I tend to think like you have certain types of people that take certain jobs, know, there's people who are sort of made for it, you know, they're just the type of people that they're designed for. And then there's some people that they find that particular role attractive and they go for it, but then they get there and they realize that they're not up for it. You know, it's sort of People tend to look at the superficiality of it and go, Oh, I want that job. And then when you get there, like, why the hell did I want this job? Um, and, I think that's burnout is more, think, uh, an issue with people whom are not up for it. I mean, there are certain things that you shouldn't do. You're not made for it, you know? And, know, the only way you'll find out is by doing it, you know, and then you realize, okay, this isn't for me. But, um, you know, when I hear about burnout, you know, I think it's. not just the job, it's a combination of other things. Cause you know, you can, you can have boundaries. You can say no to stuff. You know, you can manage your life differently. And you know, if you take on a job that requires a lot of you and it has a negative impact on you, then you know, I don't think there's any victims. my job, my job. No, it's you. It's not the job. It's you. know, yeah, the job's demanding. Sure. But you know, okay. mean, you chose it. You know, you said yes to the job. So if it's not working for you, either a change the way you work or get a different one. I just don't, you know, people who complain about their environment to me, it's like, well, do something about it. You know, so, you know, I think people burn out for different reasons. think the reason why people burn out is they have a maybe. misguided understanding of what work is. I think people that burn out at work, the work is probably not meaningful. It's probably not fulfilling. It's just work. and then I think also people don't take care of themselves because they don't care about themselves. So they don't. I think people that get burnt out would probably get burnt out at anything, you know, So, you know, I don't know. I mean, I think that there are some jobs that come with stress. I went through this. I mean, I had a lot of really, I wouldn't say like really big jobs, but I was like, you know, I was a corporate executive and it was horrible. It was horrible. I didn't want to do it anymore. I just wasn't made for it. And you know, I guess the part of it too is also, uh, does me admitting that I'm not made for something mean I'm not good enough for it? You know, that, that, that. that maybe I thought that was true for Robin. It's not, it's just, it's not for me. That's all. what, fine. You know, I'm glad I know that now, but I can understand why that would be a difficult thing for someone to admit because maybe they've constructed their identity around their job in a way that's not healthy. You know, I do this for a living. I have this title. I have make this much money and all that stuff. And, know, we have a lot of that way that we measure up people and the way we perceive each other, I think it'd be not healthy. So I find that people that don't get burnt out either, a, they may work harder than people that don't, that do get burnt out, but they really like what they do, you know, and so they don't care. and then there's people who, they're working really hard at something they hate and they're doing it for understandable reasons. Maybe they built their lives based on this role they have, and now they're stuck in this identity they have, and they have to figure out a way to recalibrate it. I mean, if you're a guy and you meet a woman who married you because of all those things you bring to the table. And then you find out later that you don't want them anymore. You know, it could be like, is she going to care about me anymore? She going to want to be with me anymore? I don't want to lose my family. I don't lose my wife. So I'm going to keep doing this thing. And I think we create a lot of these traps, you know, for ourselves. So I think that's a big part of it, but in terms of like work burnout, like too much work, probably just be more efficient, you know, delegate more, you know, I think these are things that are easier to fix than. other things I'm talking about. Sorry, I the long answer, but that's my answer, yeah.
Jolie Shapiro07:53.207
No, it was great. What kind of fixes are you, or excuse me, that's not the question I want. Let's see, I'd like three questions in my head. What did you learn as a CRO before founding the CRO Collective in terms of...
Warren Zenna08:10.914
Yeah, it's interesting. What I learned was I didn't like it. You know, it's funny. You talk to someone who is an interesting question, right? So if you're going to go to somebody for advice, do you go to someone who's successful at the thing they're doing or the person that failed at it? You know, and I think that the person who failed learned a lot more. Success is a shitty teacher. It isn't a good teacher, you know? and so, you know, if someone is, you know, divorced and then remarried, that person is probably really good person to talk to. than someone who's just happily married because a lot of marriages are luck to be frank. So, you know, I think that there's wisdom in that. And so for me, getting the job was like, you know, I learned a lot about the role and its complexities. I admittedly took the job probably before I was ready for it. So that was a big part of it too. And I just had to kind of come to terms with that about myself. But more importantly was, you know, I really know how to teach and train and coach and develop better than I know how to do. It's like coaches and players. So you look at like a Bill Belichick who's an amazing coach and he wasn't a great player. best coaches usually aren't really the best players. And the best players don't usually make the best coaches, you know, it's a different skill. And so, I think for me personally, it was like, learned that it was just a really complicated job that, I could explain to somebody and I could train somebody to do, but it doesn't mean that I should be brought on because I was the best at it. That doesn't mean that I don't want to say this. It doesn't mean that then I wouldn't go to the person who's best at something to learn from them. But the, the key is like, because someone's really, really good at something. If they don't know how to talk about it with you, then you're not going to get the value from it. You could just observe them as an example. But the transfer of knowledge is a skill. It's a different thing. so I think that was what I saw, is that I found more clarity around where my competencies are. And that's what the change was. But that's how I landed here.
Jolie Shapiro10:25.072
Yeah, and you've got something really incredible. What are the most common pain points you see in the people that you coach?
Warren Zenna10:34.08
You know, it's mostly internal. A lot of stuff I hear is, related to like their, what's the word again? It's like a fraud. I'm a fraud. know, I'm, what's the, what am I talking about? What's this term? It's a hundred percent. It's huge. You know, you make, you're at this job, you have this title, you're doing all this stuff. And I'm not saying everybody, I'm saying a lot of people are like, why do I, why am I here? They're going to find out about me. They're going to see that I don't belong here. I'm going to get caught. It's very common.
Jolie Shapiro10:54.222
imposter syndrome.
Warren Zenna11:11.774
And so that's a big one. just the way that affects people is if I'm in a position of authority and I don't feel I belong there, then I may, without realizing it, make little nuanced, like, compensations to make up the difference from my own lack of confidence and I'm making my situation worse, you know? The really confident people, they'll delegate everything and they'll hire people a lot smarter than all the time. They'll bring on superstars that are thousand times smarter than them. They're like, why wouldn't I bring on the smartest people? They're smarter than me. I want to bring them on the team. someone whom is afraid of themselves will never do that. They'll always bring on people that they feel smarter than you could see this. So when I, when I look at a company and I see the companies like hire populated by a lot of really, really smart people, think that leader is probably really smart. It has good emotional intelligence because they're like, it. You know, I have to, you know, I have to hire good people. And so, That's one thing. And the other thing too is someone who feels they have to do things all the time themselves. Like they're always in the weeds because they better do it. Because if they don't do it, then it looks like they don't know what they're doing. So I'm going to do it to make people think like I'm good at what I'm doing. And if you're leading, you should be doing little. You should be leading and doing less. And I think that that's another important part of it too. I see how people sabotage themselves. And the other one too is self-advocating, like being able to ask for what they want, you know, like I need this, I need that, I want this, I want that. Not like a spoiled child, but just with a good rationale. Here's what I need, here's why I need it, please give it to me. As opposed to taking what they're given and working with less and not advocating for themselves and expecting everybody to read their minds. You know, that's another part I see too. But the transitional between becoming a a more complex leader into that, stepping into that role is very interesting transition for a lot of people who are fighting with their own demons around themselves. And it's good. It's a really cool exercise. Everyone should do it. Everyone should take on something that they maybe don't think they can do. I think it's a really cool thing to do.
Jolie Shapiro13:30.086
For sure, actually. A few years ago, I taught myself paid search, paid social, yeah, paid search and paid social in about 72 hours because I had to.
Warren Zenna13:41.389
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, you got to do what you got to do, right? I mean, you adapt. But, you know, this is the stuff I encounter with the people I'm working with a lot is, how they're not. another thing too is, not knowing how to have conversations effectively, know, communication skills. And it's not just like articulating things. It's also just communicating like, how do I bring this X or Y or Z to somebody? in a way that's going to be persuasive or not seem X, Y, know, like just packaging information in a way that moves the needle and managing the personal stuff that comes up when I have to go ask somebody for something, or I have to go complain about something to somebody, or I have to change something, or I have to let them down, or I have to disappoint them, or I have to, you know, like these are not easy things that you have to develop a lot of acuity around.
Jolie Shapiro14:44.732
Yeah, for sure. How do you think burnout trickles down from the zero level?
Warren Zenna14:50.966
Well, I mean, look, if you're running a team, you know, the team looks like you. mean, if I, I, you know, I look at anything on a team, if there's someone on a team that's not performing, then certainly no question, there's a local issue with that person, which is that person might need to be trained or developed or maybe given better direction. Fine. But more importantly is why is the leader didn't do that. The leader either didn't equip that person properly or hire that person improperly. or is ignoring that person in some way. So it's all really at the effect of the leader, you know? And if you are a leader and a CRO is one, you have to be willing to say, everything that happens on my team is my responsibility. Everything. And that's the side of a leader, you know? And if you're a chief revenue officer, which is a very complex job, you do have to have that attitude. And if you have that attitude, one, You know, you're always going to be sort of learning and evaluating and looking at things and doing things better. also you're to take responsibility for things. So you'll probably end up being a better leader, but if you're not, you're going to run a really, the team is going to look that way. Everyone's going to be blaming each other for things. one's going to take responsibility for anything. You know, it becomes a whole like weird political environment and you could tell, you know, any company I worked at and now at this vantage point too, when I was younger, I couldn't see this as clearly as now is. You know, companies that are very political and backstabby and you know, it's, they're run by really immature people, you know, don't have really good leadership skills because they're letting that happen. That that's probably how they operate. So people operate that way. People take the latitude they're given in, unfortunately in companies, know, that's way it works.
Jolie Shapiro16:32.988
That makes lot of sense. What kind of companies and people succeed?
Warren Zenna16:40.878
well, first you have to be really competent. Competency plays a huge role. So it's not just necessarily how your nature is, but you just have to be good at what you do. You know, I think we overlooked that, you know, it's not just an emotional thing. It's you got to be damn good at things. You know, if you're to do something, you have to be good at it and really good at it. And you have to have developed that skill over time and learn and perfect and make mistakes and fix and do things. So that's one thing, be good at what you do. And which means that you have to do things that you're good at and make them better. Uh, so that's one thing. And I don't want to under emphasize the importance of being good at stuff. And then the second part is, uh, like I said earlier, humility, uh, willingness to take responsibility for things, um, caring about the people that work for you, caring about the people that you serve, caring about the values that you have of you and the organization that you work for and communicating those values and, uh, living those values. think those are important. Um, you know, hard work, discipline, disciplines are really important. One people who are really disciplined are tend to be successful. People are willing to take actions, implement actions, get people to act and take actions. And a lot of the work that we do, everything is all really doing stuff. And you got to know how to do things and also how to get other people motivate people to do things and do things in a certain way. And people that know how to do that are very successful. And you know, another thing. really good communication skills. I can't emphasize this enough. If you're a chief revenue officer, you've got to be a world-class communicator because you're talking to so many different kinds of people and you have to get a lot of things done through communication. You're making requests, you're giving reports, you're providing updates, you're giving forecasts, you're explaining your motivations, you're making investments, you're trying to build new opportunities, you're trying to innovate. You're going to be implementing changes. That means you have to listen really well. You have to understand what people are saying. have to have empathy for what they're saying. You have to understand how communication works. it's really, it's incredibly important skill and you have to know how to articulate yourself to people so that people understand you and they, they know what you're asking for and they know why. And it motivates them to want to do things. those are important skills.
Jolie Shapiro19:15.962
for sure. I communication is the backbone of It's probably backbone of most things, potentially down to humanity. Thought question from that, I'm pivoting a little bit. Do you think AI has allowed people to fake competence?
Warren Zenna19:24.908
I do think so. No. No, I don't. I mean, I'm not seeing it like that. look at it like, so let's say, let's say, We all do this now, I think. Let's say, for example, I have to research something, you know, so I asked one of the, you know, large language models to do it for me. And I say, you know, do a recent research on, you know, Jolie Shapiro for me and give me some background and, you know, give me some insights on some things that you talk to Jolie about and why, and it does a really good job of it. How is that any different for me doing a Google search? What's we've been doing for 25 years, you know? So to me, it's like, I think that there's this sort of specter like, you know, You know, if we want to do that, you can go back and say that Google made us all stupid. Right. And then, you know, you can go back further and say, well, you know, books made us stupid. Right. So now someone can make the argument say, it's not the same because, know, you know, they're not as immediate, you know, you can actually have a chat GPT or whatever it might be, imitate you or speak on your behalf. And that's true. But, you know, I think ultimately You're still going to have to pay the piper. You're actually going to have to get in there and have a conversation with somebody. And I don't think that we're at the point yet where it's going to completely replace us. And I think I look at it more like the bionics. think it just makes my arm stronger or my legs stronger or me run faster, but I still got to do the running and I still got to do the lifting and I still got to do the throwing and I have to know when to throw and when not to throw and who to throw to and well, who throw to part maybe. it can help me with, which is good. So I don't know if it's going to fake intelligence. do know that people are definitely writing a lot more or using it. And I don't care about that so much. There are certain things I'm rethinking. I think that You know, like would I go see a concert of an AI band? I don't think I would. Art is different. think we want to see a human do something. That's what part of it is because a human's doing it's what makes it magical, right? but writing a book about business or writing a paper. I mean, if it's a good paper and I learned something from it. Okay. I mean, I don't know. I'm, I'm sort of on the fence about this one. I think if somebody went to the table and said, I'm a great writer, and then they were using chat GPT, that's different. But if it's a, you know, I'm communicating good ideas, I think as long as the communication of the idea is done, that's okay. So I don't know. It's an interesting one. I don't know. But I built an app that speaks like me and answers questions like me, but I don't think anybody thinks it's me. I mean, they know it's a bot. It's fine. I don't care. But it's still my knowledge, you know, I imbued it with my knowledge. So it just it's mimicking me. If anything, I made that thing smarter because it wouldn't have known that without me. you know, so I don't know. I'm not sure I think that's the case. Could it be in the future? Yeah, probably. And we'll see what happens. It'll be fascinating, you know. Maybe we'll all just be smarter. I don't know.
Jolie Shapiro23:09.82
I hope that's the case. actually, I'm a songwriter and I actually, I discovered this AI tool that you give it directions, but you, you also, I also put it on my lyrics and the musical direction and all that. And it actually creates songs. And it gave me the ability to, cause I can't play instruments for the life of me. but it gave me the ability to put music out there that I never would have been able to or would have taken me three months to produce thousands of dollars later. It enhances my ability.
Warren Zenna23:50.041
Yeah, look, I don't know. mean, there's some amazing AI music right now. Like crazy. Like, you know, like, I, I've been hearing these examples of songs that someone creates, like they take someone else's song and they say, make this, it's, it's, it's really good. So, I mean, if someone played an AI song for me, some of the ones I'm referring to, I wouldn't know that it was AI. I would think it was a band and I think it was good. So, Yes, it does change things. If I'm told it's not a person, I might feel a bit swindled or hog swindled or whatever it is, but it was still good. You know? So I think it's going to be really interesting. I think we're going to be able to make movies with this stuff. You know, I, it's, it's, we're entering a new world, you know? I remember where, I don't know how old you are, but you know, you're certainly not 10, you know? So, you know, I think it's like, we, you and I come from a place where we're used to everything being done a certain way, but you know, like a 10 year old or a six year old is not going to have the same reference of material that we do. And they're going to see this stuff as being the normal and it'll be fine. So we're all looking at things from our own perspective. You know, people said the same thing about the internet. There's a lot of people, you can read articles right now. It's crazy. So many articles written in like the early nineties, mid nineties, saying, this is a fad. This is a joke. This is never going to result in anything. I don't know all the hype around this. So you know what? I don't know if we know anything, honestly.
Jolie Shapiro25:27.652
I was ignoring him just that I'm taking notes. No, that's that's fascinating. And I think it just goes to show that I don't think we know where it's going to go yet.
Warren Zenna25:40.782
I don't even know what...
Jolie Shapiro25:44.388
I like that. Actually, what do I always say? I'd rather be wrong to be right. Kind of my mantra for life.
Warren Zenna25:57.08
So.
Jolie Shapiro25:59.325
there works do. What do you think about the AI agent movement in sales?
Warren Zenna26:05.742
I mean, I don't know if we're at the stage yet where you can actually have like a robot selling. think some things, I mean, if I'm doing a transactional sale, it kind of already is a robot, right? Think about it. I did today, I was on Instagram and there was a really cool product and I clicked on it and I bought it and speak to anybody. So a robot sold that to me basically. What's the difference? I think what we're talking about though is like, is a robot going to call me on the phone and, you know, sell me something and object it? don't, maybe. But I don't know about right now. I don't think it's capable right now. It depends what you're selling. If you're a product like a new widget, then maybe. But if you're selling me an idea or a service, I don't know. It could be. I don't know. Are we going to be hiring or hiring? Are we going to be deploying robots in place of salespeople? Maybe in some cases. Again, given the right product and the right transaction and the right commercial model, it's could work. So, I mean, I'm not, I'm not against it because again, like I said, I, the hell do I know? You know, I mean, it's likely that I'm biased. Like if, I were to make an objection to it, it would probably be because I'm threatened in some way by it, as opposed to whether I think it's a good idea or not. So it's not, I don't know if I trust my own opinion about this stuff, you know, it's probably is going to happen anyway, you know, so I don't know, but right now today, You still need salespeople for certain things. You're always going to need them, at least as far as I can tell. But that doesn't mean that 10 years from now, or even five, that we're going to get sophisticated enough that I could just have somebody answer a call for me and it handles the whole thing. I could totally see it happening. I could totally see it happening. And you know what, honestly, if that's the case, I think what will happen too is if I have the ability, and I don't know if the time range, right, let's just say it's five years, that I could get somebody to answer the phone for me and sell. How the hell do I know that it wasn't a robot that called my robot and bought from me? You know, like I can deploy someone to buy something for me too. Would you buy this for me? Call that robot and buy it for me. Like I think that would actually be better. I'd rather have somebody buy shit for me, you know, than me having to go buy everything. You know, I need five things. I need a new shirt. I need this new thing. And you enter it into Chat Cheap E.T. or whatever it might be and say, purchase these for me. And it goes off and it buys them and then gives me an update that it did. if I'm any... I'm going to buy things with AI. Why shouldn't I sell them with AI? I think it's probably just ultimately what makes sense. There'll be a weird bot economy going on at some point.
Jolie Shapiro28:43.94
I like that bots buying from bots. don't kind of like that kind of feels like Terminator, but
Warren Zenna28:50.094
Okay. But I mean, like, think about it. I mean, how many things do you need? Like you need deodorant, you need new floor cleaner, you need toothpaste, you know, like they just, you know, those types of things. And you just go in and you just say, buy these things for me and get them at the best price and have it delivered to my house. Here's my Amazon account or whatever. don't care. it'll go, it'll search. It'll come back to you with a, a, a, a page that says, thanks. We found the items for you. Here's the list. Here's the price. Let me know if you want me to deploy. Yes. Boom. Done. Like, I would be great. So to me, okay, fine. One less crappy thing I got to do, you know?
Jolie Shapiro29:29.404
Yeah, I get that. think there's actually a OpenAI has operator, which is getting to that point.
Warren Zenna29:33.462
Yeah, it does. I don't know how well it works yet, but that might do it. You know, in fact, now that I talked about this with you, I'm gonna go to Atlas, which is the browser. I'm gonna see if it can do it for me. I think it's pretty cool. There's a lot of little things I have to buy. Maybe I'll see if it'll work. So I think it could be really neat. Yeah, why not?
Jolie Shapiro29:47.229
There you go. Just want to, oh, go ahead. Oh, no, I was going to say, I just want to circle back to more the mental health side of things. AI is definitely an interesting topic. How do you keep yourself grounded when things get tough?
Warren Zenna30:02.318
I know. other people. Yeah. mean, I just isolation is a bad thing. You know, I think if we live in our own heads, if I live in my own head, it's bad news. So I need to get out of my head, talk to other people, people whom I deployed in my life, whom I have a relationship with me, or I can say, I'm thinking this stupid shit. And they'll say, oh, okay. And then we can talk it out and it gets worked out, you know, and probably also having a good environment. think honestly, I think it's the relationship you have are probably gonna be the key thing to get you through things. No isolation. think you need to be around people that you can just talk things through with that. That that's the best thing. And then exercise, eating well, sleeping well, those things are good. You know, get a good night's sleep, eat good food. You know, things that we know that all makes sense that we probably don't do, but we should. So I think those are important things like just general self care.
Jolie Shapiro31:12.508
Sorry, my mouse was going crazy. No, I agree with that. think a lot of us, or at least I speak for myself, I know exactly what to do. Will I do it on a day where I get no sleep? Debatable. Will I do it when I get eight hours of sleep and feel like I can conquer the world? 99.9%. I'll get it done. think it all depends on our state of mind too.
Warren Zenna31:41.07
Mm-hmm. I agree. I think it has to do with just how we feel about ourselves. know? Also, I think it's too, it's also being responsible for other people. I do believe that if you have a family and you have kids, then it changes your perspective because now it's not about you anymore. Well, it shouldn't be. I see a lot of people that have kids and it's still about them. But I think that it'll increase the degree to which you're likely going to be thinking about other things than yourself if you have other people that you're responsible for. So I think it's a good thing to do.
Jolie Shapiro32:20.124
Yeah, that makes total sense. Random, but relevant. Did you start the CRO connection? Excuse me, that's my question. No, no, no, it's because I was going to say connection. Did you start this CRO collective because you value connection?
Warren Zenna32:27.406
collective. No, no, I did because I felt like it was a cool problem that I figured out a way to solve. I thought it'd a cool thing to do. mean, I'm not feeding the homeless or anything or, you know, saving people in Sudan or anything. I'm solving a business problem, but it was one that I saw that wasn't being solved and that it needed to be solved and that it could have a big impact. And I thought it'd be kind of cool to do. And, it was a smart. kind of a business model that I built in my brain and I thought I'm going to do this. And then it was probably more, I do this? Am I capable of doing this? Am I capable of building something and then making it work or not? So it was kind of like a bit about that too.
Jolie Shapiro33:24.508
That's great. Anything I have an ass that you want to share?
Warren Zenna33:29.484
I don't think so. It's your show.
Jolie Shapiro33:33.838
That makes sense. is my show. I just, I feel like you have a lot of knowledge and I feel like I'm only hitting the tip of the iceberg. No, think, I think I think we got some good stuff out of this. Okay. So where can we find you?
Warren Zenna33:53.071
Uh, the Sierra collective.com and also on LinkedIn, which I'm, know, constantly there all the time. So those are the two places to find me.
Jolie Shapiro34:07.0
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Warren. Really, really appreciate your time.
Warren Zenna34:10.52
Thank you for having me today.