Jolie Shapiro00:01.618
Hey everyone, welcome to Revenue Mind, a podcast where revenue leaders talk all things mental health. I'm Julie your host, and with us is Hasia.
Hacia Atherton00:10.742
Yes, hi, how are you?
Jolie Shapiro00:13.392
Yeah, good. How are you? Thank you so much for joining. Really, really appreciate it. I guess you're my not you're my first Australian. You're the I'm gonna just like obsess of your accent the entire time. So so I'll try I'll try and like not fangirl it. But again, thank you so much for for being on. so yeah.
Hacia Atherton00:24.556
Yeah. You're welcome and I'll I'll get the favorite Australian word out that Americans love making me say, which is no. So there you go. I don't know if it will come up in conversation, but for everyone that's listening here's the Australian. No.
Jolie Shapiro00:41.766
Yes. yeah, I'm not gonna be able to speak the rest of the time. No, totally kidding. it's gonna be like you you just go just just speak. anyways, great to have you. so the first question I typically ask is what makes you you? But I know that we had a you know a prep call before this and you kind of went into your background. I would I think I'd just love to know your story. You know, you have an incredible story. would just if you don't mind opening with that, that'd be awesome.
Hacia Atherton00:57.464
Okay. Yes. so the answer of of what makes me me is definitely I think the unique blend of my story, which will get back into my career and my academic background and they've all kind of Culminated to where we are now. So I have always been an animal lover. For I think it was my seventh or eighth birthday, I got my first pony, honey babe, which made me fall in love with riding. And that was like my passion. So growing up, going through school, I actually wanted to be a commercial law barrister. Went into that industry in an internship and really realized how male dominated that industry was, and a lot of the female Barristers back in Australia were just really kind of opening up a bit, and it was tough for them to truly represent their their clients to the best of their ability because of the bodies that they were born into. So 18-year-old me is like, is that really one I want to face all day, every day? So love my horses and just doubled down on doing different things and focusing on my riding as well. So I got up to a very, very high level of dressage. And I was riding at an international level. I was training my young horse to qualify for the World Equestrian Games and was a very cold winter's evening back in Australia. And unfortunately, she had had enough of training and decided to slam on the brakes, rear up vertically. I fell off her and my weight coming off her, she landed on top of me. So over 1300 pounds, 600 kilos. landed on top of me from from height and it's amazing I guess what your mind does in those moments. I I everything went in slow motion. I heard the bones, I heard the crushing, the cracking, didn't feel the pain because I just knew I had to get out from underneath her because when she stood up, she was gonna trample me. So it's just this human instinct just kicked into like you gotta get away from this horse. So I've Managed to squeeze out from underneath her, flip over onto my stomach, army crawl out of the way, and just then collapsed a few metres away from her and then realised the pain of what had happened. So a lot of damage I've had. Over 30 procedures since the accident. when they airlifted me to hospital, I spent six months in hospital after then, had to learn how to stand again, which took 117 days until I successfully stood on land for about 10 seconds before my my legs gave way and I fell back down into my wheelchair. And it was such actually an incredible journey. That six months in hospital, I Draw a lot of my leadership practices from that moment because the self-leadership that I had to use to really learn how to thrive in adversity. That's when I was first introduced to positive psychology, which completely changed how I was showing up in that time. That I was experiencing depression, anxiety, identity questioning. My body had become a prison. of my of my own life. Like I literally couldn't wait there. I couldn't move out of my hospital bed. I was reliant on a little button that brought a nurse to me to help me with anything. And just went through a lot of dehumanizing moments in hospital. to be washed, you had to get transferred onto this cold bed, wheeled into this cold room, you know, and have a stranger wash all the parts of your body that needs to be washed. So there was pretty Tough moments in hospital, which taught me a lot about how, as human beings, we can teach ourselves to thrive even in our darkest times. And then, yeah, from there I kind of came out of hospital, gone in and out. I've got two computers inside me because of the nerve damage. I've got my right hip replaced. I went on to do my master's of applied positive psychology and set up an organization called Empowered Women in Trades, which focuses on the attraction and retention of women in skilled trades. At the time I set my business up in Australia, female trades represented 2% of the industry. So extremely male-dominated industry. And my real passion actually then, once I did the research and I had my master's, and this is what my thesis focused on. Is how we actually improve the psychological well-being of the men in the industry because what was happening is there was a lot of mental health challenges. It was hard to retain women. And I saw a big link between the psychological distress of the men and the poor treatment of all humans in that industry. And so that led into writing my book, The Billion Dollar Blind Spot: How much is your workplace culture costing you? And all of that linking of. psychological success and financial success and how do we how we how do we bridge the two and empower the psychological success to get the financial success?
Jolie Shapiro06:34.523
That is so cool. I mean, it's not cool that a horse crushed you. But other than that, the story story's incredible how you came out of that. what do you think you're the trait that you have? maybe like something, you know, inner inner trait that you you use to get out of that time? Because I mean, I would say grit, but I feel like it's so much more than that.
Hacia Atherton06:39.899
Ha ha ha. Yeah, defin definitely grit, but it's more curiosity. So I really started to learn, understand pain, understand the psychology of pain, understand the psychology of success, of adversity, the biology of pain. I really started to really unpack. so many different things to be able to overcome the pain and and show up and push through pain. I learned on my dressage training and sports psychology a lot of how to be really, you know, in the moment, be able to push your body to extreme limits mentally and be able to find that listening to your body of what's something I can push past and what is actual pain and an actual limitation of like I need to back off. And that's where a lot of the education came in through. And earlier on, I think my obsession obsession of curiosity more went to that physical side. And then I really, really quite quickly realized what was holding me back was my mental mental health. The fact that when sun shone sun came through the window for two hours a day on my bed and I'd get so angry. I would spend so much energy being angry. I couldn't be out there running, riding my horses, taking my dogs for a walk. I was just stuck in this hospital room in pain and this and that. And my pain would get worse. And when I told that to my medical team, they said yeah, and explained the link between negative thoughts and pain and all of those kind of things. So I started applying the gratitude practice that positive psychology speaks to us. And was so grateful for being able to do a meditation while I lay in the sun, read my book. I would invite friends during that time. So I really structured that time that was a high level of negative emotion for me and turned it into positive emotion, connections with other human beings, engagement with things that really fed my psychological well-being. And then what happened? I started thriving so much more in my physical recovery. So that was such a such a moment of understanding the more curious I got about my situation, about my body, but also my mind, and understanding how my mind really links to my body at such a deep, deep, deep level. And then the power of what makes us thrive as human beings, which really comes down to a sense of autonomy, a sense of competence and a sense of belonging. And then how do I curate empowering those three pillars while I'm trapped in a hospital bed?
Jolie Shapiro09:43.345
So all of that happen while you're in the hospital.
Hacia Atherton09:46.347
Yeah, yeah. So that was kind of like my six months, my six months master's in the University of Hard Knox. You know, kind of I feel like in that six months I graduated with a PhD of from the University of Hard Knox on how to survive in a really, really difficult time. So my PhD is probably how to turn trauma into triumph.
Jolie Shapiro10:11.249
Honestly, I I totally feel that. I think I mentioned it on a pod on a podcast once, but I did 850 hours of about eight months of therapy for at an eating disorder clinic. Holy shit. You want it I I to I mean, it w I wasn't a body, you know, thing, but it was all up here. Actually kind of both. you know, it was all up here and
Hacia Atherton10:26.284
Mm.
Jolie Shapiro10:38.209
that mind-body connection is so important because when my mind started getting better or you know I processed trauma and process you know process just kind of everything I actually I started healing you know from the inside out and similar we' we I feel like we're sympathico because when when I was in treatment I would use my god my mom actually started laughing when I told her this I would use the exposure rooms like they have exposure rooms where you like you you're exposed to foods that you're afraid of essentially. I would use that as I would use those as conference mo excuse me. I would use those as conference rooms to onboard clients because I'm fucking crazy. So instead of a consulting business in an eating recovery center. So I get it in a way.
Hacia Atherton11:10.145
Yeah. I love that. I started studying my CPA from my hospital bed. Like I literally asked to get day leave to go sit a CPA, an accounting exam. And my doctors are like, you want to do what now? Like you can't even walk. What? And they're like, no, deny, deny, deny. Like, what is wrong with you? Get the can we get her psychiatrist and psychologist back here? Like this is not a normal request. So I really resonate with you there.
Jolie Shapiro11:58.426
No, I I completely resonate with you. I feel like it's a certain type I don't want to say crazy because you know I've I've plenty of psychiatric issues I don't get into, but it's just I think it takes it's a certain type of personality that you're you're and this this is definitely speaking, you know, to you, like you're in so much pain. But I think, you know, you leading with curiosity like you mentioned, I think really and studying and learning and like your brain was, even though you couldn't move your body, your brain was active. And that that I think that's incredible.
Hacia Atherton12:29.783
Yeah. Yeah. And that's the consistency and the stability. When I've got so much instability in my body, like my body one day was doing this and the next day wasn't doing that. And with so much nerve damage as well, there's so much uncertainty. There's so much instability in your health. And then you know, I had issues with my stomach, my stomach would shut down and then all of this kind of stuff. But every day my CPA book was there with chapters one to twenty, with such structure. And it was just beautiful to hold on to something that had just this consistency, this predictability, this structure. And in hospital, there's a lot of structure too. So I knew what time of day I was always gonna do my studying. And it was like my anchor. It was like whatever happens today, I know I've got my two hours of study. I know I can what to what to expect from the book. The book is safe, it's trustworthy, it's reliable, it's consistent, and that really gave me something to anchor into, especially when my days were so uncertain, so heartbreaking, so painful, just having that rock, which at that time was my CPA program.
Jolie Shapiro13:44.005
That's I'm just like in awe right now. What's what do you think your anchor is now?
Hacia Atherton13:51.129
my anchor now is more myself. So this kind of really started to happen. I've had some really painful surgeries having my SI joints at the back of my pelvis fused, which is is an extremely painful surgery. And when I'm standing up from there, like just the pain is epic. And when I'm recovering from those surgeries, and it's quite a big recovery, and you're in the rehab and things like that. I would always start to come back to and I started this in the first six months, like what can I control? What is something that I have a hundred percent control over, which was my breath, a lot of my breath work, and then just starting to develop this deep connection to breath and success. I would say even those moments I wanted to give up, I felt life was beating me. I felt destroyed, defeated. What's the point? The pain is too much, like I'm broken, all of these negative thoughts and I would go into such a dark space and then I would start focusing on my breathing and I'd be like, do you know what Hesia, you're strong enough to keep breathing. Every breath you take means that you're showing up. a hundred percent for this situation. Every breath you take, you're still here and you're strong enough to still be here and you should be proud of yourself. And then I would just like hit my like literally lowest moment of crying in mirrors in hospitals like begging myself to stop crying. And then I would go into that space of like hang on. You are breathing, you are crying, your organs, your heart is beating, you are strong enough to hold this pain, and that is incredible. So yeah, my anchor just started to come back into that that pride, self-pride, that I was strong enough to breathe and have my heart keep beating, even though life was like just brutal in those moments.
Jolie Shapiro15:46.992
Wow. Usually I have some sort of follow-up, but I'm just like I'm so inspired by, you know, your your story. usually like my my first episode, I I I just asked questions back to back to back to back. But once I it was with with Chris Walker. he was my first guest. He's you may may or may not have heard of him. but speaking, you know, speaking to you and just hearing your story, I'm just kind of thinking like How did she get through that? But I think it's like realizing that you're still alive almost is is what I was hearing. Like realizing that you still have a beating heart and you can still breathe. And to have that sense of gratitude with everything you went through, I just think is so powerful. Really is. I mean, I'm just like, whew.
Hacia Atherton16:25.399
Yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And it it it definitely comes back to that choice of of choosing to either let that moment really break your mind. Even when there is psychologically distressing moments and you're going through psychologically traumatic times and and emotional pain is as real as our physical pain. Our mental pain is as real as breaking an arm. Like our body, the chemicals, everything in in in happening biologically to you is as as real. And I think it's just really understanding when you are feeling just that pain that we all have felt that pain that you just want to scream, a blood curdling scream. You just feel like your your heart is breaking into a thousand little pieces. Again, I'll often put my hand on my heart and just focus on my breathing and go, no matter how painful this is right now, there is something in me that makes this heart keep beating. There's something in me that makes my breath keep happening. And having that that love and connection and faith in that part of your body that even when your mind's like begging you to give up, but your body's like, mm-mm, heart will beat, lungs will breathe, heart will beat, lungs will will breathe. Just just taking that moment to be proud of yourself, like that proud, that real proud of like, yeah, this is I'm still breathing. It's just, yeah. It's the most simple thing that I think as humans, we ignore and overlook so much when we are in our challenging times that we show up a hundred percent because we're still breathing and our heart's still beating. And that means we're in the game a hundred percent. We haven't lost anything because we're still showing up.
Jolie Shapiro18:26.799
Yeah, that I love that still showing up. That's that's awesome. Yeah, my in in my case it wasn't physically I've I've been okay, like for the most part, you know, broke an arm or not broke a, you know, dislocated a wrist or sprained my ankle, but my mind, you know, a few years ago just shattered into a million pieces. And to your point, like that circle of control is like, okay, my mind is not working, you know, the way I want it to. How do I ground myself and how do I get better? So I essentially used every single label that I was whenever so there's not a ton. There's a few. I'm making up sound making me sound like I'm a serial killer. Please, Kevin, take that out. okay. So this I actually tell I actually talked to Kevin on the podcast. I'm like, please take this out because I'm gonna sound insane. anyways. no my mind literally shattered into like a million pieces and to to put it back together actually I was the opposite. I actually used my body to put my mind back together. and it was such a I was like, okay, like kind of like what you were saying, like I, you know, breath, your heart, look what my body can do, even though my mind is not there. And it's just it's I just find it so fascinating how that mind body connection, whichever way it goes, you know, is is linked.
Hacia Atherton20:02.108
Mm-hmm. They're the yin and yang of each other. we are the yin and yang in ourselves. staying with the interesting, and I I talk about this in the in my book around masculine and feminine psychology and toxic masculinity, toxic femininity, all of those different things. We have masculine and feminine psychology in both of us, in in inside of us, regardless of what our biological body. is we have those different yin and yangs and this is where we do see if we go too far into one psychology or too far into the other psychology and don't have that balance which is not 50-50 it depends on the situation what you need when you need it different things like that and same with our body, like sometimes we need our mind more than we need our body, sometimes we need our body more than we meet need our mind. So it's when I talk about balance, it's really again taking that analytical approach of like what does what do I need right now for my mind? What do I need for my body? understanding that balance to be able to empower those different things. And that's what I love about the work I do with positive psychology is that really gives some beautiful frameworks to help you guide through that process of like, yeah, what can I feed my psychological well-being right now to to empower it, to make it thrive, even though this situation is crushing me, even though yeah, my body might be letting me down right now, how can I really invest in my mind so that it can psychologically thrive?
Jolie Shapiro21:40.005
Yeah, that makes total sense. I'd actually I'd love to hear about your book. like kind of how you came to it, like the thought pro I know that you mentioned a little bit of thought process, but we'll love to hear if you know about it, whatever you'd like to say.
Hacia Atherton21:47.318
Yeah. So a lot of it came from the work that I was doing and started interviewing a lot of male leaders and understanding a lot of resistance around bringing women into the industry was actually coming from a beautiful masculine trait of protection, but displayed in a unhealthy way because they didn't quite understand where it was coming from. and they were just kind of being like it's not a place for women, it's a man's world, it's always being da-da-da-da-da. This real push, push, push, sometimes very aggressive energy towards women too. So I really kind of sat with a lot of these men and kind of like, why? Why do you think this? Where do we think this? We go through so many deep layers. And so much, even when there was extreme anti-feminine behavior, extreme aggressiveness to women, a lot of these men after I spent some time with them got to the fact of feeling they can't even protect themselves in this environment, how can they protect a woman? They wouldn't bring their daughter, their mother, any female that they would want into this into this environment. And that's actually a beautiful trait to feel to feel protected. Also the other thing that started arising was I guess an identity. They were connecting their masculinity to the industry, which was very, very unhealthy. And I learnt that as well when I was going through my accident recovery because my identity was so caught up in being an athlete, when I couldn't be an athlete anymore, I experienced extreme depression. So for a lot of the men I was speaking to that connected their masculinity to their their job, if they had a bad day on site, they felt like a bad man. So I really realized wow, as society we have really put men in a cage and disconnected them from their ability to understand their emotions, to understand their behaviour, and created this world where they can kind of be, you know, happy, angry, hungry kind of thing. Like that's how men can show up. And then I've realized to actually create this space for women to be able to thrive in the trades, we've got to do the work to allow the men to be psychologically thriving alongside the women and get to this balance. Of the masculine and feminine, get this balance to getting the men anchored into their positive masculine so that there's room for the positive feminine and that they can actually work together, not work against each other as well, and create a space for women to understand that they didn't have to go and be super masculine to thrive in this environment as well. So yeah, through my research for a lot of my master's thesis and everything like that, I really started to unpack and see that there was a deep, deep need for addressing this. And then the more I kind of looked into what was happening, the more my accounting brain started picking up things and started looking at people's PLs in these industries. And I was like, wow, this is costing a lot of money. Like I came, I came from heart. and I came from that empathetic lens and and and really wanting to address the psychological side of it. And then yeah, the accounting brand kicked in and I was like, wow, this is a massive, massive, massive problem. Started researching into the finance side of it. And you know, in the US, between it costs about between 450 and 550 billion dollars a year disengagement of employees to the US economy. That's a huge number. globally it's 8.8 trillion, which is 9% of global GDP, is connected to employee disengagement, which is very much connected to psychological distress at the workplace. So I'm like, wow, not only is this something that's going to be great and allow humans To not go to work and feel those dehumanizing moments I felt in the hospital, which you can't necessarily take away in hospital, but you can take away in the workplace. And by doing that, we're gonna be making a lot more money in the workplace too. And I was just like, this is like this is so I got really excited, kind of bringing that psychological behavior and you know, I guess financial management, strategic management together. And I was like, bing, bing, bing, bing. I think I'm onto something.
Jolie Shapiro26:21.849
You certainly are. What do you think the ideal state is, like between the masculine the positive masculinity and the the feminine the feminine part? Or not part, but it'll be the I'll let you fill that in.
Hacia Atherton26:34.208
Yeah, that's a really interesting question about the balance between the masculine and the feminine and it it definitely comes from intuition from from both. I think when some people talk about this, they feel that you know positive masculine is men that lead and and men that are logical and men that are all of this kind of stuff. Women lead but lead in a very different way. So when I talk about feminine leadership, it's very much what I do is being able to very hold space for the masculine that's opposite to me, to be able to give them a sense of safety as well, so that they can speak freely, so that they can navigate emotions that they may not necessarily have understood before. So that's the interesting balance when it comes to feminine leadership of creating that psychological safety for men to actually step a little bit more into their feminine psychology and start to unpack a little bit of their intuition, start to unpack some of their empathy, start to unpack some of their compassion that they naturally do have inside them without feeling guilt or shame or that it's weak in any way. Masculine leadership. And this works very well with me. Is sometimes I need that strength. Sometimes I need that masculine energy to be like, now's not the time to break down. We have to get through this. We've got to focus on this, narrow down killer shark energy. We can address how we're thinking and feeling about this once we get onto the other side of it, but we've really, really got a focus. And that's where that masculine energy just holds that space, that real kind of structure. Around the wild potential water that we can be as women sometimes when our emotions start rising up and that steady, strong masculine can lead us through those times. So that's like when you when I start to talk about feminine and masculine leadership and how we can support each other and what is our strengths. And for women, we're often, if we're anchored in that feminine psychology, more comfortable in holding space for emotions. where men are more comfortable in holding space for for logical direct decision making.
Jolie Shapiro28:52.805
Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. I So I'm a I'm a songwriter, on the on the side. and one of one of my lines I think that I wrote when I was in program was it was a song about being lovingly cruel. So the line is essentially, well, it's it's the I'm paraphrasing because it it was a while ago, but
Hacia Atherton29:00.245
Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro29:16.271
Like men really aren't the the theme is men were really excuse me, men were not really allowed to cry, especially a a couple of generations back. It's getting a little bit better. So it's not that I wouldn't say they took it out on women, but for example, like growing up I'd be called sensit I was called sensitive by a lot of men. just friends, you know, family, because it's kind of I don't know how it is now. I'd love to hear your perspective, but it was kind of instilled that men needed to be tough, they needed to, you know, be the protector, they needed to be strong and not enough not at least at least not emote. Maybe they could feel, but not emote. So I'd love your kind of opinion on how that is today.
Hacia Atherton30:02.518
Yeah, so from my research, a lot of this actually started from the Industrial Revolution, which is where there was a big pivot between, I guess, gender norms started happening around what a woman looks like and what a man looks like. And to be able to get men to work in that industrial revolution, in the factories, the hours that they had to work and all of that kind of stuff, we had to create an image of men being emotionless and tough. and strong and they just grind through it and they go to work and then they come home and then their wife is making them nice dinners and things like that. They're so physically exhausted they probably cannot even do any emotional heavy lifting. They go to sleep and they then catch up with their mates, have a few laughs and then they go back to work again. So that kind of industrial revolution really, really taught men, put men in that cage, stripped them away from their human state, which is their emotional state, and taught them about this drink a cup of concrete and harden up, and that's what a true, true man really, really is. And then I think when we have now gone through understanding a lot more on mental health. Understanding that the pressure of the modern day life as well. So back in the Industrial Revolution, we didn't have social media, we didn't have a lot of the pressures that we have in today's life, the fast-paceness, et cetera, et cetera. We have created a space and now an expectation for men to get to, but we haven't given them the tools to get there. But there's also a subsection of society still, and I see this a lot for women who are still shaming men for trying to get to that space of being connected to their human state. And it's messy. It's a messy way to start to understand that when men are starting to learn things around their their frustrations, their temper, their anger, which is which is the explosive emotion that can come from so many different things of shame, of fear of guilt of frustration of overwhelm all of these feelings can bubble up into the anger and when then men show up in anger we call them angry men but then when they're trying to process their emotions or talk about their mental health or talk about feeling down or low or unmotivated there is a subsection of what I call toxic femininity and you see this a lot on social media Come at them for being weak, for being this, for being that. So we've kind of said to men, we want you to be more in touch with your emotions. The modern day man can be a stay-at-home dad. The modern day man can have emotions. They can cry. We've given them permission in society. We haven't given them the tools to lean into it. And when they do lean into it, we start to shame them for leaning into what we've told them they can lean into.
Jolie Shapiro33:05.581
A very ugly cycle.
Hacia Atherton33:08.242
Mm-hmm. Like the acronym I hear it all the time around stay-at-home dads is sad. Yeah, the letters stay at home dad, that's the word that happens. Doesn't mean the word that we have to use to describe these men that want to stay at home and support the family unit. They that just because the letters make sense doesn't mean we use the word.
Jolie Shapiro33:35.585
totally. And I think that goes across a lot of things, a lot of acronyms that we use. So that's that's that's one example of like maybe I I'm not g I'm not as good as math at math as you, but a lot. I'll just say a lot.
Hacia Atherton33:40.83
Yeah, a lot of acronyms. That's lot of examples in a lot of the examples. And that's where it comes to showing up as respectful human beings. Just because the acronym spells a word doesn't mean we used to have to use that word. If it creates a sense of yeah of judgment, of shame, of a negative undertone, as respectful humans, we can choose not to use that word.
Jolie Shapiro34:09.883
Exactly. What do you if you really had to and I I I'm sure you dig into this in your book, but what do you really think is the fix to all this if you had to have maybe like one solution?
Hacia Atherton34:27.264
Solution, I would say, is need to start teaching and start learning how we develop a sense of belonging as human beings respectfully. So understanding how we belong, because there's so many people I ask that question to what's a sense of belonging to you? They're like, Well, I'm a this person. Mic drops zooming moment.
Jolie Shapiro34:57.083
gonna freaking happen. This is why I don't film myself. Hold on. my god. It zooms in on my face. Actually was sorry to like totally interrupt. No, my my editor was gonna help me with this. The zoom thing. The no we had
Hacia Atherton35:11.446
Yeah. It was very dramatic. I was like, wow.
Jolie Shapiro35:16.849
I'm gonna shut my camera off for this part because my god, I can't look in my face right now. But I'm happy it made you laugh. Hold on, let me shut this off. Okay. All right. Thank you. I'm happy it made you laugh. All right. Well we'll start over from the from the top of the question or middle.
Hacia Atherton35:25.444
That was fantastic. Okay. So yes, one one thing I think will really address a lot of this is understanding the sense of belonging. Because so many people I ask, what's the sense of belonging to you? They're like, well, I'm a mom or I'm a dad, I'm a CEO. I'm we start going to like titles and tagging ourselves into certain things. I'm like, no, that that's that's what you do or that's the family unit you hold. That's not a sense of belonging for you. So I really think we need to understand and educate people to be able to find that self, find that for themselves, then be able to teach them with the communication skills to communicate that to other people. And then really come back to understanding what respect is, because just if someone around you has a sense of belonging that doesn't align with your sense of belonging. You can respectfully disagree or you can respectfully dis distance yourself from that person, but you can still allow them to have their their space and their sense of belonging. So yeah, that that's the kind of formula. Understand a sense of belonging, learn the tools to be able to communicate that, and then we need to learn to be able to either respectfully accept or ex respectfully distance ourselves from someone that has a sense of belonging that doesn't align with ours.
Jolie Shapiro36:58.801
I love that. Yeah, I'm not putting I try to like randomly put my camera on. I was happy I didn't make you laugh. Yeah, that didn't work. that's I my editor hears this literally every time. I I say this every time, but I usually get the title of the podcast at the very end. It's a really weird coincidence, but I don't know why. I feel like you would know why I get the last line at the end of the podcast.
Hacia Atherton37:01.154
Okay. you get the I don't know.
Jolie Shapiro37:28.719
Like the title. Like I get the sorry, let me I'm not being clear. like through the conversation, toward the end of the conversation, the t the title comes up. Like for example, the title might be from you like sense of belonging or something you belong. And it's always toward the end.
Hacia Atherton37:48.523
Mm-hmm. this title of this podcast. Yeah, I guess what you're talking about. I get what you're talking about. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That's because again, from the psychology of a conversational arc. So as our conversation progresses, we are building a sense of high quality connections with each other. We're building a sense of psychological safety. We're building a sense of an alignment. So we are psychologically bonding with each other. right now as we go through it and once you kind of get towards the end like you have that depth of of psychological safety that's allowing for from your home your guest probably more authentic communication authentic language as well because they're starting to become a lot more comfortable with you because you're psychologically bonded by this point of of discussion. So they're showing up as more of their true self and then you're really aligning because you're like, wow, that word or that thing really represents this person and this conversation. Also by then, your confidence level in understanding your guest has increased. So you are more feeling more comfortable in making a judgment call of how to represent your guest.
Jolie Shapiro39:07.725
Thank God I needed an. I was like, why has this happened every single time? Like I thank you for giving us for giving me an answer. well, we'd love to know where to find you. Would love to know, you know, where your where your book is before we sign off.
Hacia Atherton39:21.194
Yeah. So my book is on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and my website's hasierathitan.com and on LinkedIn with Hastierathon as well.
Jolie Shapiro39:34.029
Awesome. Well thank you so much. This was wonderful. And sorry about the camera issues. It was actually really funny. At least I laughed.
Hacia Atherton39:40.308
It was really funny. It was, it was, it was great. And it was like exactly like getting into the real matey conversation around belonging and stuff, which is one of the key pillars of us like logical well-being. And I was just like, at the time it was like, wow. Like I was like, wow, she's really engaged with this. She's loving what I'm saying.
Jolie Shapiro39:46.229
It's like shh. It's like my god. Like what is happening? man. No, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk to my editor. We're gonna figure out there's like an app or something. and that's all I'm gonna cut out. There's an app to control the camera. I haven't controlled my camera yet, so we're gonna get that back. But thank you for being so so nice about it. well this was great. Thank you so much. Really, really appreciate your time, and I'll see you around.
Hacia Atherton40:23.646
Yeah, thank you very much for for having me as a guest. I enjoyed it.