Jolie Shapiro00:01.112
Hey y'all, welcome to Revenue Mind, a podcast, Revenue Leader Chat, all things mental health. I'm Julie, your host, and with us is Freddie. Welcome, Freddie.
Freddie Laker00:09.541
Hey, how are you today?
Jolie Shapiro00:12.28
Good. It's it's pretty cool to be chatting with you since you know, we've been on the on the same sort of team the past couple of years.
Freddie Laker00:21.467
I agree. I like a any chance I, you know, get to geek out with someone on subjects like this, I'm happy and it's it'll you know, we'll get to know each other even more in front of everyone else.
Jolie Shapiro00:34.028
Perfect. You know that's what podcasts are for, right? Like just being completely awkward and having an editor edit it out. Which is which is that's why that's why they I mean there's many reasons why they exist, but every single time and he's gonna kill me because I'm gonna say it again. Every single time I'm like, Thank you, Kevin, because I'll say something like totally off the I'll say totally something off the wall.
Freddie Laker00:56.793
Yeah, I'll know that. Right.
Jolie Shapiro00:59.262
yeah, but first of all, congratulations on your book. I know it was a huge, a huge undertaking and we'll love to hear, you know, the story behind it. I have some specific questions, but if you just wanna kinda chat about it, anything you got, we'd love to hear it.
Freddie Laker01:11.909
Yeah. I I so I'm gonna be a one and done author. I think that when I first started doing this, I you know, was probably not emotionally ready for exactly how much work it was gonna be. it is a you know a monumental test to try and get through a book. I think once will be enough for me, but I decided if I was gonna do it once, I was gonna make sure I did it right. I had two wonderful co authors. worked on it for at least a year and a half. and it was really all about collectivism. And I think a lot of people are familiar with the concept of a collective. A lot of times it seems like they're referring to it in terms of middle age middle ages feudalism or something, but you know, we really think that the collectivism is is is got a chance to rise again. And I think a lot of that is driven by the fact that. technology is a you know that that allows people to collaborate and and think and work collectively is approaching you know the cost of zero and that unlocks a really, really, really interesting business model that that for a lot of you know MBAs is a is a footnote for them. And we feel like we've been able to execute the collective model, a true collective model, you know, a Camillon collective. It's something that you know resulted us being on the Inc. 5000 four times now and and I'm sure we'll end up on it again. and you know I used to think that the way that we worked was kind of crazy when we first started doing it. And it was very unusual. Now I think it's the best thing I've ever had a chance to be a part of. And I think for the book for me, if I really look back at my life in 20 years or something, yeah, companies come and go. Camillon collective, you know, maybe forgotten if it's not around or in its current format. But I but if I could really think about the impact that I want to leave on this world, I think if I could help ten thousand companies, you know, form collectives, that would probably be the s coolest thing I've ever been involved in in my entire life.
Jolie Shapiro03:24.181
I love that. I think the the concept of legacies, you know, like leaving something behind is something I very much aspire to as well. And I like that you're not just saying, I wanna, you know, sell this and sail around the Mediterranean for for a year or you know, or you know, the rest of my life, but that but you wanna kinda pay it forward. So that's that's really great. I love that. So without the book, forget the title, the book, your amazing follower count. Who are you when none of that's in the room?
Freddie Laker04:05.345
Great question. I'm probably a lot more complicated than than than most people realize. I think I'm if you've ever heard anyone say this before, I'm I'm both an introvert and an extrovert at the same time. So I have a version of myself that I'm able to kind of project out to the world when I when I need to and and want to. but but honestly, I'm I'm very happy just kind of Being by myself with my wife and our Pomeranian sometimes. And you know, when I'm when I'm not at work, I'm either spending a lot of time out in in the garden, where we have a giant woodland forest behind our house. And I've been building a huge woodland garden, which is quite unusual. So not like the traditional around the house thing, but like all out in the woods, and I and I love that. I spent a lot of time working with technology. My biggest passions are probably I'm really enjoying working with a lot of the AI tools that are out right now. I think it's, you know, it's a groundbreaking time and I find that super intellectually stimulating. and the other one most people don't know is while I didn't get I think the landing that that I would have loved for it, I actually still really believe in VR. I think it's 10 years ahead of you know, behind where everyone tried to hype it into a a couple of years ago. but I'm very involved in that scene and I'm building a lot of you know, VR experiences and and it's another place I feel like I get to be really innovative and break new ground. And and so, you know, when I'm not, I guess, working with clients and and and you know, kind of the places where people normally see me, I'm like kind of a tinkerer. I want to like tinker out in the garden or I want to tinker with this project, or I wanna you know, tinker with, you know, some other thing that I'm working on. And you know, I think sometimes people like really love like having downtime. I'm just kind of not one of those people. you know, and so I I love I just want to be busy all the time, honestly. I really am fiend off it. And I think for me, work has never really felt like work. So sometimes even like my hobbies, some people like, that feels like work. It's not work to me. I'm just like I find it really interesting and exciting and and I've always kind of been this way, honestly. So I just want to be Constantly intellectually stimulated. I'm sure my wife would wish that I wasn't like that all the time, but it's just kind of how I'm wired.
Jolie Shapiro06:38.315
I totally get that. My husband and I call it bulldozing. We we just can't sit still. We just I it sucks.
Freddie Laker06:46.139
My wife was like what'd you do if we took like this and this and this off your plate? And I was like If I'm being honest, I would probably just stick more things back on my plate, just different things, you know what I mean? So and you know, maybe that will change o over time. It doesn't you know, I some people have even said to me, like, will you be able to retire one day? I wanna be careful. I will actually. I don't have an issue stepping away from that. But retirement doesn't mean that I'm not doing stuff all the time. You know, I I I feel like I've got a a million hobbies that I wish I could spend more time you know working on. The one that always surprises people, by the way, if I could retire tomorrow, you know what I would do? I would go to culinary school. Just just because. I just because I love food and cooking so much, I would go to culinary school and get a culinary degree just just because.
Jolie Shapiro07:34.221
I love that. Do you like to cook at home?
Freddie Laker07:36.614
I do love to cook at them. Yeah. And and and my wife has surpassed me the last couple of years. Like, so I gotta go to culinary school, you know, because I'm a one upper and I've got to I've got a beat her now. Not that I'm competitive. All jerks aside, we actually said we'd go together, which I think is really cool. So she said we're gonna retire, we're we're gonna take we're both gonna go to culinary school together and just be something we can do together and just geek out making food.
Jolie Shapiro07:59.544
That that sounds so fun. I actually might maybe I'll do a cooking lesson, just like a very mini version of that.
Freddie Laker08:06.161
Yeah. I I we've done some of those. We think they're great. And you know, I think, you know, I remember my father saying to me once when I was young, you know, eating is the o only only ritual of enjoyment that renews itself three times a day. And it always kinda like stuck in my head and and I can imagine a future where I'm you know, I spend maybe a couple hours a day just trying to whip up some amazing dish and that being really intellectually stimulating, frankly. Something new every day, you know.
Jolie Shapiro08:32.225
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, we're actually my gosh. So we have been doing a rotation, a Costco rotation for the past, I don't know, three, four years. And finally I'm like, we need to go to a grocery store and pick out regular food. I can't do I can't do frozen salmon, burger, chicken, bananas. Like I just I started to go a little bit stir crazy, so we're
Freddie Laker08:55.633
They they do have great ribs at Costco, just saying. They got a good good meat selection on there.
Jolie Shapiro08:59.531
They do. Their ribs are the bomb. They're ribs and they're rotisserie chicken. But aside from that, we are gonna fix it up. where do you think that all came from? Like that kind of intrinsic motivation, need to be busy, where do you think that that derived from?
Freddie Laker09:04.965
Yeah. I I definitely think it was in my household. I mean my father was a bit of a workaholic himself and I think he was always he was a tinkerer, you know. He he he was always you know starting or running running businesses. and when he wasn't that he liked his he loved his boat and he was an engineer when he was younger and he would go Tink around in the engine room. Literally just go muck around. Like didn't know what he was doing, but just get in there. I mean, he knew what he was doing, but he didn't have a reason to be there, but he'd find a reason to be there if that makes sense. You know what I mean? And go go tinker around in there. And I I think that's I I think I got that tinkerer tinkerer bug from him. it's funny actually, I was I was talking to someone re the last week and they were asking me their, you know, they w they have a lot of entrepreneurial aspirations. And They're they're based in the Philippines and they just someone that you know works for us. And I really love their mindset. And they're like, you know, how do you, you know, like how do you how did you he was asking me, how do you kind of get good with all this stuff? And I had I said, you know, I have to be honest. I can't pretend that like I, you know, found all this stuff. Like it was just in my household. I I have to recognize like consumer myself exceptionally lucky that I had, you know, a A pretty, pretty kind of an entrepreneur's entrepreneur in my household. And and then he he was a huge inspiration. My mother was also an entrepreneur. I grew up around, you know, meeting these kind of entrepreneurs and them inspiring me. but I said to him, you know, that doesn't mean you other people can't get the same experience. You just have to choose to have this experience. And I think we do live in this kind of incredible world where entrepreneurialism, certainly in the United States, is is is very celebrated. And, you know, so if other people say, Well, hey, I didn't have that childhood, and again, I fully recognize how fortunate I am, was there, you know, but you know, people can, you can go out there, you can read the books, there, you can, you know, join the groups. There's just a million places that you can, if you want to just absorb entrepreneurial energy nonstop. It's it's there and it's and there's no barrier to entry in my opinion.
Jolie Shapiro11:36.534
Yeah, I completely agree with that. My my parents were the classic, you know, work in XYZ profession for 40 years. My dad was a traveler, litigator. My mom actually she did have her own business. She was a LCSW with her own practice. So that in itself was I think that was very, you know, part of my journey where I got very inspired by that, you know, being a a working mom with She was she was a high divorce or excuse me, high conflict divorce mediate media my gosh, I'm gonna say it right. Hold on. High conflict divorce therapist. So it was she had some pretty gnarly cases. so it was just amazing watching her career over the years.
Freddie Laker12:22.833
I mean, this is totally off subject and you should edit it out. But I just noticed something. You and I both have something unique I haven't seen many people have. In I can't remember if it's my left eye or my right eye. You have it on one of your eyes where there's a different color band right in the center on one of your you've got yeah, yours is dark, different color there. Mine is I don't know if it's a birthmark, but I have like a brown I ca I think it's this eye where it's all green and then there's a little brown, tiny little different color inside the eye. It caught caught my eye and I Yeah.
Jolie Shapiro12:36.343
First one? Don't get really close and creepy. Yeah, it's right. What color your eyes? I actually can't see. Yeah, minor yeah, yeah. That's so cool. I've only met like under five people that have maybe had that.
Freddie Laker12:51.883
I think it's this one, but anyway, I just can't like it's like a hazel hazel color I think yeah but I yeah yeah I think there's an I think David Bowie had something kind of like he had different color eyes but he also had like a a color through it. I think it's called a Merle and weirdly enough my dog has it. my Pomeranian has it which think is really funny. Anyway I think thanks was it Keith? Thanks Keith you can edit that out was it there is the editor
Jolie Shapiro13:15.724
There we go. Kevin. I mean, he'll he's not offended. He's fine. I'm sure he's been called God knows what over the over the years. he's actually my now they're we're a little off topic, obviously, but he's my husband's ex-bam mate from college. I met him on Fractionals United. Out of 15,000 people, he ended up being my editor. I'm like, man, I gotta marry this guy because if Yeah, it's ridiculous. But no, thank you for pointing that out. That's that's really cool. So let me just turn you louder so I can not talk over you. One sec. There you go. All right. Where were we? We were talking about L C S W businesses. Okay. Cool. Speaking of work.
Freddie Laker13:56.346
Yeah, you're probably.
Jolie Shapiro14:08.481
So your book talks a lot about, you know, chasing a better way to work. So over the course of ten years, what was the old way costing you before you let itself excuse me, let me use again. What was the old way costing you before you let yourself call it a cost?
Freddie Laker14:27.745
Good question. I think that the old way, what it cost me, and I think and I think it everyone has a different cost, to be clear. In my case, I think what it was costing me was happiness. I didn't like not being able to control my own future and and and destiny in a traditional corporate job, but I also didn't really like assuming all the risks. you know, and and and and the full burden of being an entrepreneur and being the, you know, the one person kind of throwing themselves in the fire. Always joke, you it's how I got this crap haircut and I just don't need that kind of stress in my life anymore. And and and so for me, collectivism was a way of finding other people willing to, you know, work together where we could all be the boss. We could all control our future. But we all accept part of the risk together so the full burden doesn't fall on me. And that was really appealing to me. But if you talk to like other members of Camillon Collective, some maybe were never entrepreneurs before. And they just wanted it because they were interested in maybe going out and and having more control over their future and the way they worked and who they worked with and how they worked. And and it made it less scary to go do it with other people. you know, some people just wanted, you know, there wasn't it wasn't even that important to them to have an entrepreneurial venture. They just wanted more control over their lives or they wanted to feel that more of the money and the value that they created for others ended up in their pocket and not, you know, in some corporation. And so I I think I think what's interesting is it just there's a lot of different motivators I've seen that will attract people to collectivism. But I think all of them ultimately come back to one thing. There just feels like there's something fundamentally wrong in the system right now. you know, I I don't think like I'm a diehard capitalist. I've I've, you know, it's been obviously been had a great positive impact on my life. But you can't help but look at it and not go, something's wrong. You know, and and it and especially the last few years, it seems like more and more wealth is concentrated in fewer and fewer people. The disparity is a real issue. and I think trying to build systems of business that are good for more people, or as we kind of phrased it, like making capitalism work for everyone, I think is a really positive thing. And that and that was that was probably the biggest motivator is like that again, wouldn't matter what angle you come in from, you get this sense that there has to be a better way than whatever we're doing right now. I just think most people weren't willing to to make that leap of saying, Yeah, you know what? I'm gonna have a wank at fixing it. And and and and I'm sure a lot of people have tried and and failed. And we've certainly had our stumbles along the way, by the way, and we continue to iterate to this day.
Jolie Shapiro17:34.619
for sure. I feel like or I think that the spirit of entrepreneurship is finding that gap. Some of the best founders that I've worked with see a problem and they solve for it. They see the gap. And the gap isn't that easy to see, especially when you're in your own world a lot of the time. So that's that's really cool.
Freddie Laker17:41.275
Mm-hmm. Mm. I think this is kind of the superpower of a lot of a lot of entrepreneurs, right? It's just this willing to a willingness to kind of spot something that other people might kind of look at it and just keep walking and and and they're you know they're willing to to to stop and address it. Worth noting, this is also one of the things I consider really exciting about AI technology right now, is that a lot of entrepreneurs are, you know, idea people. And and especially smaller entrepreneurs where you don't have the capital, you don't have the resources. And I feel like the these kind of technologies are kind of rem removing the moat or the barriers that stopped a lot of people from going, you know, I can have a crack at trying to solve that. and things that may have felt insurmountable before maybe feel a little bit more surmountable and possible now. And I think that's one of the things I find so exciting about it. It's a sk both a scary at time to be an entrepreneur because it and frankly for any of us because the world is so in flux. but there is opportunity in in chaos, you know. and there is opportunity in these moments, I think, when people can figure out how to harness this stuff for good.
Jolie Shapiro19:13.421
Can you expand on the opportunity and chaos? I love that line.
Freddie Laker19:16.731
Yeah. I think that when the world is a little messy, whether that is you know, geopolitical type things, whether they are socioeconomic, whether it's technology upheaval, technology upheaval probably being the one where I feel the most comfortable operating, where there's like some kind of tectonic shift in in in, you know, You know, the way that people are working or the way that people are using technology or just consumer or customer likes or dislikes. And when those things happen, a bunch of companies start failing and a bunch of new companies start succeeding, right? and I think that if you're if if you play it right, it's those change moments is when there's actually the the big opportunity to make leaps forward, right? Because what happens is the entrenched people who are very successful and you're maybe the people you'd looked at for a long time and said, you know, company X, Y, and Z, like those are the those are the people, right? Like they're really kicking us and making big money. I could never take those kind of people on. Well they're when the chaos starts happening, they get really scared about changing the plan that's worked so well for them so well. And then I'd say that, you know, some of the new people have hypotheses on what you know the future might look like. And they're gonna try and capitalize on that. and I think if you can present yourself as a as a strong path forward and bluntly get lucky enough to pick one of the right paths forward, yeah, there's a lot of opportunity there. There's a lot of opportunity to kind of kind of come out of nowhere, you know. so yeah, I mean, I think even like when I think they're you know, Camille and Collector first store coming together, I think we had some of that, right? There was a feeling that that people weren't liking the way that they were working. the concept of becoming an independent or fractional worker was on the rise, but no one had quite formulated it yet. the technologies that enabled it were just starting to emerge in a way that made it all kind of kind of perfect. and and I think just this kind of like sense that that that people were looking for something new and then frankly COVID while being an insanely ca tragic, you know, scenario or you know, tr event would probably be better better way saying that. you know, it it did accelerate the way that people changed how they were working, and that was chaos. And and we know, and and we those were probably the years we grew the most and the fastest. so now I think we're in another period of that. And I know us and other, you know, and other firms out there and other entrepreneurs and frankly all of us are are gonna have to now see if we can navigate this next set of chaos. which somehow feels even wilder than the last ones. Do you ever feel like we've been in some kind of like crazy science fiction film for about like the last five to ten years. It just it just like it just it doesn't it's so weird all the time lately that I just yeah, I I it it did it feels like we're in some kind of sci-fi film. I also want on a record that as much as I love AI, If I could put it all back in the box and it would never happen, I would be totally okay with that. Yeah. I like I I I'm not I'm I'm I it's very scary stuff. And again, you know, hopefully we're navigating well, but again, if I could make it go away, I would. But it's not going away, so we can't. And so I've chosen to embrace it and and and find opportunity in chaos.
Jolie Shapiro23:03.341
If you don't mind me asking what scares you about it.
Freddie Laker23:07.193
It's the unknown, right? I mean, you know, I think that I think a lot of people could have their jobs displaced. In fact, not could, probably would, and we're already seeing that. I am a techno optimist, though I tend to believe that a whole new wave of of of of work is is is will be created. Problem is, just being really honest, it may not be created for the same people. You know, and so It's not like we're saying all the people that will be disrupted, you're gonna get the new jobs, and it'll probably be a different batch of people, unfortunately. And so, so that's kind of scary. I do worry that the technology is so powerful that it will be consolidated in the hands of a a smaller, very, very wealthy set of people who may not have the best interests of the rest of us at heart and almost certainly won't do. And then that makes me nervous. you know, I I I love free enterprise, but I worry that, you know, the government will need to be more involved in this just to make sure that it doesn't you know, create a an even bigger disparity in society than is today. you know, that's those are the things I worry about. You know, the flip to this is I think it unlocks potential to do things we've never dreamt of. You know, we're doing things today and I'm getting to work on things today. that I've talked about for years and have never been able to do because I didn't have the time, money, or resources. You know, and and and that's super exciting. Yeah, but it's still there's still going to be a lot of people that aren't going to benefit in that way. what for what it's worth, I'm trying to actually help as many people as possible navigate this transition and teach as many people to use this this technologies for their own for their own benefit. but I don't think, you know, there's there's enough people out there doing that and then not and not enough people are gonna maybe be able to navigate this this this one. And that's scary.
Jolie Shapiro25:11.227
definitely. I mean, I think any opportunity for not any opportunity, that's a little harsh, but when there's an opportunity for the disparity between the haves and have nots, some people tend to take advantage of it, which is scary because AI is just a new frontier of the not the same story, but different versions of the story.
Freddie Laker25:32.891
Exactly right.
Jolie Shapiro25:35.244
So stepping away from business for a second. Well, this was actually this was less businessy, but Kevin, please cut that out. That sounds condescending. Okay. Let me read this. Thank god I would he probably laugh. I'm like, thank God for you. I say like on the podcast. like what is this quite why did I write that? okay, let's see. Okay, let's go in. All right, so back to the book. So your book says. No one should carry it alone. What carries you? And are you good at letting them?
Freddie Laker26:14.683
question. so the idea behind no one should carry it alone was this idea that you know collectivism moves from this kind of you know genius in the million helpers model and you know looks ultimately for we people you know it it's this you know we we we talk a lot here about moving away from the concept of you know recruiting me people and moving to people that are we people and we people are willing to share that burden. when I think about you know, what is it that that I tend to carry and and am I willing to share it? Am I repeating that correctly? Yep. so I would say that the Stuff that I'm good at sharing with others and and I and or at least I'd like to believe so and I'm I certainly work at it every day, is you know, trying to think about the different and right people that should be handling moving the company and the business forward, right? So I like I believe in specialists and I think hey, there's the right person for the right job and I and I try and take on that try and share that out with everyone. because I I have a strong willingness to believe, hey, I'm not the right guy for everything. Right. the thing that I am not good at sharing with others is sometimes when things get really stressful, and like the world we're in right now, I think sometimes I I get stressed by those things. And I will, you know, kind of quote unquote try and save the world on my own. You know, and like like this tendency to be like, okay, I don't wanna I don't wanna stress everyone else in the collective with this. It's a really stressful subject. And no one else I I think to myself, no one would want to work on this. I'll go take on this really hairy, messy, horrible thing that no one else wants to do. And that's actually not the right way to handle it. Something I've actually been reflecting on a lot lately. That, you know, I I preach collectivism you know, all the time. And then sometimes I kind of don't practice what I preach there when I when it's things that I find stressful. And and I need to be better at that. And so that's something that I I want to get I want to learn how to share with others more and say, hey, look, I know this is the hot potato that I didn't think anyone wanted to do, but I'm gonna ask you to help share the hot potato with me, you know, versus the stuff that's not quite so stressful, you know. I don't know what that is, is if it's something or I just Don't wanna ask because I feel like pe I know people don't wanna d no one really w likes the hot potato or, you know, I don't know. but but it's something I gotta work on.
Jolie Shapiro29:08.557
I totally get that. I'm terrible at asking for help. Just period. I remember being an algebra what was it? my mom always has this example. You know, I I don't know if I don't know if all parents do this, but some parents will bring up things from twenty years ago as an example. It's it might be a parent thing. I I don't have kids, so I wouldn't know. Sorry, go ahead.
Freddie Laker29:25.713
Yeah. Yeah, I said it's a mom and dad thing. Yeah. I was gonna say my mom. Yeah. Still bringing up stuff I did in high school.
Jolie Shapiro29:34.985
Okay. Okay, I feel better. So so there's an example of when so I I have dyscalcula, a math learned disability, and I my verbal was strong enough to the point where it usually gets diagnosed from first grade. Mom got diagnosed tenth grade. So I didn't I didn't know I had a problem. but I
Freddie Laker29:58.61
Hmm.
Jolie Shapiro30:07.623
So just in general, I just have a really tough time asking for help. I want to take it all on, you know, like I can do this, I got this, you know, that grit, that kind of just go get a mentality. But you sometimes you just gotta ask for help. And like personally, I don't know if you feel like it's like it sends, especially being, you know, a founder of Chameleon, like it Not that it makes you look weak, but it's like, man, like the founder can't handle this on his own. Like is there is there any sort of that feeling or
Freddie Laker30:42.193
Yeah, super fair. Yeah, you know, I think sometimes when can I say this? I I think that sometimes when there are the hairiest problems out there, first off sometimes you just maybe you want to deal with them so no one else has to 'cause you don't want to talk about the fact that they're even problems. I I think that sometimes I get I you know I worry a lot. So like I'm a a bit of a futurist and I you know and I like to look out look at the you know horizon a lot. And so sometimes I think that I worry about things that other people maybe aren't worrying about. And sometimes I think that I'm in the right because I'm I'm I see things that I think I see up things that other people are not seeing. and that's fine. But I think the mistake that I need to work on is when I see those things, I need to come back to others and say, Hey, let's work on these things together, versus, hey, I saw this thing, I've been working on it for three weeks, and let me tell you about it now that I've been working on it for three weeks. And that's that's not that's not collectivism and that's something I that's something I'm working on.
Jolie Shapiro31:50.402
My mouse has given me issues. No, totally. Am I
Freddie Laker31:52.081
Yeah, no.
Jolie Shapiro31:54.464
in my experience. I guess a more recent example, like my whole thing is work-life balance and anti-burnout and talking to revenue leaders about mental health and what they do, you know, to kind of take a step back and maybe take the vacation. and not and not work to the brink where it's like, maybe vacation versus like preempting it versus, you know, you know, going to Keynes for for a week and maybe it wasn't vacation, but you got to, you know, let you know, let off some steam a little bit. and I kind of it's it's like that. we try and build something that n we are living up to it, but we're a little hypocritical. At least I I I feel like I can be hypocritical at times. so it's it's really in this human psychology is so, so fascinating sometimes.
Freddie Laker32:38.321
When when you talk about finding work-life balance, I just had a flashback. So I used to do this podcast. I still do it just not as frequently as I used to, called OSHIP. And it's all about talking to other entrepreneurs about you know, kind of OSHIP moments of when they went, you know, kind of things went wrong and how they dealt with it. And it has this kind of whole faux nautical theme and it was great fun. But in the very beginning, we used to film it on the back of my friend's boat. And so One of my favorite episodes, probably not for the audience, but I always think it was funny in hindsight, was Ben and I were talking and we just we would pick someone's a subject five minutes before the then we'd start recording. We just like, yeah, let's talk this. And we just turn on the camera and just let it rip. And we had no editor and we would just do everything live. And we decide that we're gonna talk about work-life balance. And if you watch it. And go back, you can actually like even zoom in on my face sometimes, and you can see that I basically have a full-blown existential crisis on the podcast when I realize that I'm the last person on earth that should ever be talking about work-life balance. And so and it's like you just see this moment of panic hit me about 20 minutes in, going, Why did I pick this subject? This was the worst thing that I could ever do. Because he's forcing me to talk through my balance, and I'm realizing my balance is rubbish. Now I want to be clear. You know, that's not you know, when I think about the collective model, I think a lot of people will choose it to find work better work-life balance. I I I chose it to have more freedom to work on all the things I wanted to do the way I wanted to work on them. but yeah, so I actually my one one of my key collaborators just said to me that he goes, You you haven't taken a vacation this year. Have you got something on the calendar? And I was like, No, I need to get something on the calendar. So yeah, I'm gonna work on that. Thanks for reminding me, you're the second person to you know pseudo pseudo bust my chops today.
Jolie Shapiro34:34.049
No worries, I'm happy to. no, I I totally get that. So a couple more questions, maybe one last one, because this might might take up a little bit. so your book totally blew up, which is amazing. Bestseller, I believe, right? I think it became the just shot up to the best seller list. That's that's so cool. and I could feel the shift in your posts. Like I just cut, you know, just reading them.
Freddie Laker34:49.79
Yeah, Amazon best value. Yeah, number five.
Jolie Shapiro35:01.631
So just to be blunt or honest, I guess probably a better word, how much do you think your worth is riding on how it does? Because that's the exact trap it seems like it was written to break.
Freddie Laker35:14.971
Great question. it's gonna sound nuts, and I hope this doesn't offend anyone. Look, I'd love for it to sell, but I I I don't I don't think any of my worth is kind of dictated by by this book. it would be great. Honestly, I wrote it because it I wanted to get it out. I wrote it with these co-authors more than anything. I just wanted to get out of my head. It was something I just felt like I had all these thoughts that I I really wanted to get out of my head and put into some record. You know, about and I think it was incredibly the theme of the word of the day, but intellectually stimulating to kind of go and say, look, I want you to forget Camille and Collector for a second and really think about the principles of this and and de and decouple it from the business. And then really think about what that means for people. And and I loved it. I had some of the most interesting conversations of my life. sitting around talking with some of my co-authors and some of the other members of Kamon Collective about, you know, what these things really meant. And I and I enjoyed that. but you know, even if I just give copies to people for the rest of my life, like I'd be fine with that. I think it'd be I think it'd be great. I think it's a record of that. but in terms of my kind of, you know, worth or something, I think you know, I think people probably put at least some of the my clients and the people that work with me, I mean, I think they're more interested in like, how do I help them grow their businesses and things like that, you know, and and then at the end of the day, that'll continue to be what people pay me for, you know, like how do I basically build and scale businesses for other people or how do I help people find incredible teams and experts to do that?
Jolie Shapiro37:01.995
that that's a great answer. I figured that would you you'd have something along those lines, but I really like the way you put it. You're gonna be like I tie you my entire life to how this book is doing.
Freddie Laker37:07.823
Yeah, not fair. Yeah. Great if it did but it didn't like I'm not sweating it if it doesn't. Yeah. I enjoy I enjoy the process no matter what, so
Jolie Shapiro37:19.285
Yeah, you're definitely a builder. I got I got the sense from this podcast that you used tinkering several times.
Freddie Laker37:21.327
Yeah. I definitely do like it. Yeah. Yeah. I like I like I like to I like to make things. Yeah. I and and moderation is not my strong suit. So I just like everything I do I always kinda dial it to eleven, honestly.
Jolie Shapiro37:28.503
Same. Same, I I talked to my cousin and we're like, yeah, our family doesn't have any balance, like at all. I actually have a lyric and a song. I'm a a songwriter on the side. And the the line that a lot of people relate to is balance has never been my friend.
Freddie Laker37:39.01
Mm. Mm-hmm. I love that. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, yeah, that's I I can identify with that. Yeah, I'd like to say no. moderation is not my strong suit is how I normally phrase it.
Jolie Shapiro37:53.005
It's a it's a fun. That's a much more way that's a much better way to put it. But no, I I really in in general I'm really happy to be part of, you know, the collective. I remember we met, I think a couple of years ago and I was trying to figure out how. I was looking back in my emails, but what I do remember, you know, timing is everything because I remember meeting you at first and we both knew I wasn't ready, which was really interesting. And then I think maybe a year later after I bolted my business, you know, came on and I s actually made my first engagement as of couple couple days ago or coup maybe a week ago. So it's it's really cool. Yeah. So I was like, I have to talk to Freddie, man. Like it was I mean, first of all, you you released the book, which I wanted to, you know, talk about because it's it's such an incredible book. but I also, you know, I thought it was pretty cool timing around that time, you know, got the first engagement and just this whole collective is just I know that you wrote a a book.
Freddie Laker38:42.298
Not that. That's all. Ha ha
Jolie Shapiro39:03.841
beyond what it is, but I think what you built is incredible. Just wanted to put that out there.
Freddie Laker39:07.835
Thank you. At the end of the day, we built it. You know, I may have been the initial seed, but there it was, it was, you know, hundreds of people over 10 years that made this collective, the collective it is. So it's been a ride.
Jolie Shapiro39:20.331
I'm sure it has. I can begin to imagine. well this is great. Thank you so much. I I would love to you kind I mean people would love to know where to find you. I know you're on LinkedIn, but any any things you wanna shout out.
Freddie Laker39:31.533
I think the best place to find me is LinkedIn. So LinkedIn forward slash IN forward slash Freddie Laker. so always happy to hear from people there. the book's website is collectivecapitalism.org. so if you're interested in checking that out, great. If you want to learn a little bit more about Chameleon Collective, it's a chameleon collective dot com. yeah, happy for you to check that out as well and and we can go from there.
Jolie Shapiro39:58.101
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. That'll all be in the show notes. So just want to get it on the transcript, of course. All right, great. Thank you so much.
Freddie Laker39:59.953
Okay. Right. That's J Great see great seeing you.
Jolie Shapiro40:09.046
You too.